At the time of posting: 21% say...very good.  16% say...good.  26% say...fair.

So....63% of the 'posters'...believe Harney has been good for the public?

63% have/had NO relatives, friends, acquaintances ......dying/in pain/waiting months (years) for a consultant or surgery ??? 

How many consultant rheumatologists are available to the crippled in Ireland?

How many have not heard the ads for the Beacon Hospital....they can diagnose all ills within a few short hours???

Public v private....hmmmm....wonder who supports that???

How many have died because they could'nt afford early intervention ???

And 63% support all that....???  GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!

Oh Dear, I would have rated Ms Harney as poor but I didnt see it available.... I think she is a disgrace to the title of Minister for Health and should have been replaced a long time ago.

I would have also rated ms harney as poor but also did not see it.  It is now time to make a change.  Bring back the old Ireland when we looked after our young and old we may have been poor but we did not treat people like our governement are now

she is an absolute disgrace to the health service, she has brought it to it's knees, she should of resigned or been sacked years ago. she will do further damage if she is left in the post, she has to go.........

Everyone of our politicians should get the basic wage for one WHOLE year MADE to go public instant of private have there bank accounts frozen for that one year     LETS SEE HOW LONG THE WOULD LAST

I also would have rated Ms Harney as poor but it wasn't an option when I voted either.  Why???

Cinderella Me too didn't see poor (should have put useless!)

You have to toggle down to reach the "poor" button which I think explains why there is a large number of "fair" voters.  1% of the people taking part in this clearly don't live here or have never used the health service.  The only way to get proper treatment in a timely manner is to pay for it, which is a disgrace.

The health service is a JOKE. My grandfather was on his death bed in a corridor.

Why should he have had to go private when he's paid taxes all his life.

Mary Harney should be sacked. She'll be old herself one day.

i did not see poor mary harney is  a disgrace how she has lasted 4 years is beyond me ...   i'd like to see her visit every hospital in this country and ask the patients what they think of her ....... 

I also did not see the poor grading. Hence the fair grade.

Mary Harney is the scapegoat for the Govt.  If it was not her it would  be someone else who has made a joke out our health system.  The entire bunch of them should be forced to stand in line in a hospital and watch the misery caused by thier unconcerned management. Why should they care if public patients are left to die in awful circumstances, they have private health care when they are ill.

Minister for Health - she's more like the Minister for Poor Health!  She's a disgrace and so is the health service she's supposed to be running.  How often in the last couple of years have you actually seen her doing anything?  Since the breast cancer misdiagnosis she's been keeping that low a profile she might as well have been gone.  Except she's still clocking up a salary and expenses.  It's an absolute disgrace.

i didnt c poor either...the health service is a disgrace,a joke.i was waiting 3 months and i was sent private to hav varicose veins removed yet my mother who is crippled with arthritus has been waiting 2 years and has now been told she will have to wait another 2 before they wil do a hip replacement she is 72 and in pain i was 40 wit minor leg pain doesnt seem fair......

Dreadful.

The health service as it is is a disgrace. She should be gone long ago. Five years in the post and the services are now worse than what they were before she becames the Minister for Health. Courage and it is needed in spades to take on the administritative side . Front line staff are the band aid holding a failing system together. They are the staff that are essential to services but nobody is listening.

i am a nurse in the health system and the standards we have to work under are a disgrace, i blame the lot of them, she don't and never will suffer like the poor patients left on trolleys for hours, us nurses can only do so much ...........

where was the poor option when asked that question! definately wud have gone for that!

I didn't see the poor button either but I may still have given her a fair rating as I believe she should be given some credit for attempting to stand up to the vested interests within the health service. As a collegue of mine said you won't hear much about the underpaid Nurses now & this was during the summer last year before the true extent of the financial crisis was known. Most state employees are keeping their heads down now hoping they wont be the subject of further taxes, charges & the dreaded benchmarking downwards that has been touted by Colm McCarthy & Brian Cowen. The reality was that lots of people lost the run of themselves & lived far beyond their means in an economy where many things were realatively more affordable with the exception of property. Fianna Fail hang your heads in shame for allowing this unbridaled speculation on property to continue due to lack of regulation. Current & future generations will pay heavily in terms of health cuts & social deprivation for your indescretions. I know that there is nothing much to do know but to grin and bear it as there is no getting away from it to quote Colm McCarthy Ireland is bust & we all will have to soldier on & take the pain but it is galling that this Finna Fail led Government allowed the banks & developers to squander savers had earned money which they entrusted to these banks in good faith.

It is a shame that the option to vote 'POOR' isnt more obvious, Thankfully I noticed it before I voted

All our Ministers and especially our Minister for health should be BARRED from holding Private Health Insurance, they should be using the service that THEY supply, I guarantee the service would see an instant improvement miraculously!!

Yes..I would have voted POOR if I had seen it on screen. Yes, its time for a new minister...she has done nothing for the health service and its worse now that it was back in the 50's I'm told. Poor management and vision by Ms Harney and her department. Do we not have someone in this country with vision anymore?

Both Minister Harney and Prof.Drumm should go now, before they get any worse!!!

They will get their above average pensions, he will go back to his job in Crumlin and walk away from a shambolic system called the HSE!!!!.

Why oh why do Irish People put up with this. In Europe people get out and March.

Soon, there won't be a general hospital in any major town in Ireland the way things are going.

Look at Ennis, Monaghan etc for eg. They want these Super Hospitals in the Major Cities but the population in Ireland is not confined to cities!!!!.

The majority of our population is rurally based and what do we do,?? we become complacement and do nothing except moan to ourselves instead of becoming pro-active.

The time has come to make our politicians be accoutable for thier action and demand better services. Not everyone is to blame for the demise of the Celtic Tiger. There should be a major overhaul and sooner rather then later. Health is only one of many areas that needs addressing before the next generation are left with crippling debts and a third world health service. I know because I work in it!!!!.

mary harney is a disgrace. minister of health a joke, she should be called minister of WASTE

If only 42% rated her as poor because they couldn't find the poor box, then time to go. Mary Coughlan said today that she would accept the resignations of the FAS board if offered. I think many of us would accept one from her and her colleagues also. Offer it soon please!

I do think that its a pity that the "poor" button was not immediately visible - do you think that is why 39% rated Mary Harney as 'fair'? 

The health service is a total disgrace. 50 years ago when this country was POOR no body had to wait to ge into hospital and you were not pushed out untill you were better If that could be done when the country had no money WHY are people waiting years WHEN this country was awash with money. Then the service was run by the head doctor and the Matron ran the wards and they were spotless clean there was no MRSA then .It is all adminitration and big salerys at the top the people that actualy do work in the hospitals  are short staffed. and as for closed wards ,they would rather waste money on PA then open the wards. but ms harrney has tunnel vision she should have been dismised years ago , I could go on and on and on it is about time that people stood up to these poltitions ,nobody voted them in to do as they like they forget who put them there and why they are there FOR THE GOOD OF THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY

Don't mind the "poor" rating, it looks like from the above comments - a 100% "no grade" rating for Mary Harney in her role as Minister for Health.

Her Fair Deal Nursing Homes Payment scheme is one of the most intelligent, progressive, fair and generous pieces of legislation in the western world.  For this alone she is an excellent minister.  The great pity is that her legislation has been blocked since 2006 by various interest groups inside and outside the Dail, resulting (through no fault of Harney) in continued hardship to nursing home residents, and their families, who have to pay fees.  Meanwhile of course others occupy beds in the same nursing homes, completely free of charge & at the state's expense while their relatives wait to inherit their assets.

Instead of complaining about Harney's "poor" performance as minister, perhaps people should examine the many societal and lifestyle reasons for Ireland's "poor" state of health.  A healthy society is one that can be proud of how few hospitals it needs, not how many.

Who ever come into replace her. I wonder wil he/she be better or worse

she made a mess of teh health service if she was in any other job she be sacked and so she should be time for her to go, so Mary go now get out

Since the foundation of the State our population has increased by over 50%.

The demands by our population on the Health Service have risen ten fold (?) due to the increase in available treatments and improved methods of earlier diagnoses leading to better outcomes for thousands of patients.

The extra money needed to do a better job was never made available due to succesive governments not willing to raise the necessary taxes.

We the voters are "hoisted by our own petard" by demanding lower taxes but expecting improved service!

We get what you pay for!

POOR, POOR, POOR,  I say an absolute disaster.  I also did not see the "poor" rating.   How can this individual, who was elected as a member of a political party which no longer exists, hold such an important position in Government.  Easy, no one else wanted the job, particularly none of the F.f'ers.

Well I can tell you this none of her mates in Dail Eireann has sat in an A and E department waiting hours for attention.   They drive up in the limos no doubt, or should I say are driven up in the Limos to one of the BIG ESTABLISHMENTS. 

The Lady should have resigned years ago.

Editor, please sort out the "poor" button issue as this poll is causing confusion. Thanks.

This is typical of the ready ups in present day ireland.  This poll has been done in such a way that you only tick the visible boxes and as most people have said, the Poor and Fair boxes were not immediately visable.  I didnt see them either.

I just hope for the sake of irish democracy that this was a mistake on the part of the web designer. 

I hope that these figures will not be used in defence of Ms Harney, because the ratings above are not accurate as everyones vote was cunningly diverted.

My rating for Ms Harney is Poor and my personal opinion is that she is a disgrace.

I think Minister Harney's lack of people skills, morality and conscience made her an excellent choice for interfacing with the ethos of the HSE staff and for once we had a functioning HSE with all people , from Minister to porter, on the one wavelength at last.

in my opinion she,s not even worth a comment, her poor performance speaks for itself.

I would also have rated her as very poor, but Fair was the last word vissible

on the page.

A few years ago I emailed her, and she had not the manners to reply, or to get

someone in her office to acknowledge receipt of email.

A wheelchair user,

I also didn't see the "poor" option, otherwise I would have ticked it.

She's a dreadful minister in a dreadful Government. 

Poor was the lowest option given in this poll... I was looking for something lower than that... Ms Harney should resign!

Does it matter what we think or how we vote? She will be retained by this Government to absorb the flak from the public. As for coco above - what vested interests did she take on? She got into bed with them in so far as she has pandered to their every wish in order to create the markets so that they can make huge profits from the sickness of the Irish people. She gave huge pay rises to the already overpaid consultants knowing that they could not work longer hours but they would back her wish to close beds in the public system to create demand in the private sector. So then - how do we get rid of her? She has the powerful on her side.

I think Mary Harney is a disgrace and certainly no advertisement for health.What a joke.

no sign of poor button would have used it.Too many chiefs in HSE EACH TRYING TO JUSTIFY THEIR SALARY

She will never have to experience the public health system nor will any of the others (can't think of a polite word to descirbe the disgraces that ruin this country) so they couldn't care less about the people.  As for the hierarchy of the HSE should be done on a separate poll and page!!!( with the poor button visible first!!)

I have been in the health service for some time and the managers within this system are just as bad, make stupid decisions about things that they know nothing about, trying to justify their jobs, and have no idea how this change will affect anything, but always remember it looks good on paper.

Joe Public need to stop attacking the frontline workers who slog their hearts out for the patients and go for the ones that make stupid decisions like office refurbishment over a ward that is literally falling down.

May they all go out screaming!!!!

I notice a comment from The Admiral, re the resignations of the FAS Board, we are really missing the point of the FAS resignations... It is not surprising the Board Members decided to resign en masse. New legislation is being considered that I believe prevents large payouts, massive pensions etc to board members, to discourage "jobs for the boys" and if they resign now they will still get these huge payouts but if they remain after this legislation is introduced they will have minimum payouts or perhaps none at all (if the morally correct thing is done!) Besides just accepting their resignations these people who mismanaged and wasted such funds incredibly badly should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Mary Harney is a member of a party that no longer exists, yet why is she still in the government? You can bet that Ms Harney will have the best health insurance going.  Fianna Fail does not care one iota for ordinary people, they are imposing NAMA on the citizens of this country to benefit the banks and crooked property developers. The people must get these power hungry leeches out of government.

To Kbn, even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

I voted poor and yes I searched the button options to find an even worse vote. The people on top keep giving themselves more & more money while the people doing the hard work get taxed more. Also the Irish gov like most other EU gov think the more money and high priced drugs etc you push on people the healthier they will be BUT they are many supplements than can stop many disease BEFORE they become bad (yes I use them and it works) What does the gov do ban the supplements and buy the drugs and wonder why the costs go up.

anony,

I said she attemted to stand up to vested interests, I didn't say she succeded, not with the consultants at any rate it would seem, as they have got big wage hikes. She appears to have had better luck so far with the Pharmacys who appear to have roled over on their fee battle.

Before Harney took  over health, we had a health service that took care of people who had no health insurance now the health service is only interested in  private  patients, Harney favoured Boston to Europe - she is a dismal failure - she gave in to the consultants gave them a rise of 25,000 yet she couldn't find the money for the cervical vaccine for young girls, the sooner she and Drumm go the better for all - she has no mandate from the people of Ireland, she should not  be in Government, she has no party.

Would you believe it my brother who is 64 collapsed in work last week he was brought to the mater hospital after a one and half hour wait on an ambulance, he seen the triage nurse within a hour and then sat in the waiting room for 10 hours to see a doctor until he could stick it no longer and signed himself out.

He went to his own doctor the next morning who referred him to the a+e in the lourdes hospital he finally seen a doctor at six after another long wait who admitted him for tests. 

It would have been cheaper and quicker to fly to another eu country to be seen.

My god what has the health service come too, mary get your act together.   

Harney is a disgrace...Get her OUT..

Her no compromise attitude and clean sweeping ideals ie: change all, aggravate all, and make a bad situation even worse is horrifying....

Hello again to all,

I've just found this discussion page, after I voted "poor" to mary Harneys performance.    Yes I did scroll down the list, I was looking for "hopeless" but had to plomp for "poor".   So far I read only one supporter for our minister for sickness, KBN, where have you been hiding these last five years ??? I'm sorry but the poll should be ran again, with just two options,,,      a),, Keep Ms Hearney...      b) Sack her now !    She is we all agree [exept one], not a member of the majority party in government, and that is why she still has the job,,, she is the "whipping boy" for the rest of the dont care group who are voted in again and again by people who blindly support the same regime as their ancestors [apology to those with impaired vision] 

There was a situation last week where a set of traffic lights went down, for the zillianth time, the location was just south of Dundalk Town, and there were a few minor scrapes, and dinges, ,,, one of the people involved in the main collision was the local , TD, Seamus Kirk, FF.    He was taken by ambulance to Drogheda Hospital, while the local Louth County Hospital, was only a mile and a half, back towards the town center ???   I think the accident was about 11 o'clock in the morning,,, he was interviewed in the early evening news,,,,I bet he was not kept waiting for 7 hours...

The blame for the current health service disaster goes back to our previous "teashacK"  if you put his initials before the present ongoing banking disaster, you will have the reason for the state of the country.  

 BANAMA Republic

That was'nt really  necessary, but, we should not forget who allowed this situation to snowball over the years, and got off lightly...   In a real banana republic,,, the people would demand the traitors be shot,,, or at least hand back the wages  [sorry salary] they never earned

Latest leak says,,,  the Combat Poverty Agency is to be run down, to nothing,,, Does someone up there think there is NO POVERTY in the country ???

Look Again  !!

"live horse and you'll get grass... can you live on grass  ??? "

Peter  47

There are no words to describe Ms Harney, esp after reading some of them posts, have her replaced pleeease, it's about time, why are we one of the lowest percentage countries with a bad health system, something has to be done, fast!

Hi,

Why has Mary Harney not brought in the man that sorted out the British
Health service as an person that can put some structure into the Health Service and make constructive changes for everyone's benefit. You only have to look at Brendan Drumm to know that he dose not have any leadership style/qualities.  Doctors know what is going on within the Health Service but refuse to stand up and help get it all back on track. This is wrong and they know it. They should be promoting HUMANITY for everyone, they are normal people and I am sure they use hospitals as do there families! Its not all about money,sadly money dose not bring good health or happiness.

Giving further options - Like disgraceful or diabolical shoud have been added to the poll. Each one could have been in the 80 or 90 per/cent

Hi just wanted to know if any one else has tried to book an appointment for a blood test?? My dad who has pulmonary fibrosis and lately weakness in his legs, has been advised by his doctor to get a blood test so we can see if his iron levels are low. Rang Beaumont Hospital and was advised that he can have blood test Dec 1st??? Have had to get him back on to the iron tablets he was on previously as to wait until December for a test is unacceptable. If its low now God knows what it would be like by December or infact if he'd still be here!! Mary Harney and her cronies should go now before they cause any more unnecessary sufferings or indeed deaths...

Poor does not describe Mary Harney's performance. She is a disgrace and so is our health service. It is very obvious that neither she nor anyone in our government know what it's like to be ill and have to wait for months and months on end all the time getting more unwell and having no quality of life.

Not only do they have the best private health insurance but because of who they are, get seen to immediately.

The sad thing is, we actually have no say in what happens in our country. No matter what we say, no matter what terrible stories we tell the nation, about ourselves or our loved ones suffering, NOTHING CHANGES.

I don't know how anybody can make excuses for Mary Harney or regard her as a scapegoat for FF. The health service as it now stands is entirely her idea - the HSE is her 'baby'.

There is no accountability. No TD or obscenely paid Civil Servant is EVER 'responsible' for anything. In every other country in the western world, including the USA whose system of health Harney worships; elected representatives are required to take responsibility for their departments, be accountable, and RESIGN if they fail.

Harney is a FAILURE. The cancer services are a scandal, orthopaedic services are a scandal, dental treatment is a rip-off, cystic fibrosis patients are condemned to filthy waiting areas/crowded hospital wards, and certain death. My friend's disabled child died, internal organs crushed by the collapse of her spine - the waiting time, TWO years, as the child got weaker and weaker - no paedatric consultant available - by the time there was one, she was too weak to undergo the op.

Ah well! This is the Republic of Ireland where all the children are valued equally. Like Hell! Limo man rules OK; £10,000 for five days use of a car!! £500 to be driven between terminals at Heathrow - there's a (free) train for all the lower orders.

Brian Cowen still earns more than Barak Obama and Gordon Brown! The TDs with their unvouched expenses earn more than any American or European politician. We've been conned folks. The 'soldiers of destiny' are incompetents. No interest in making Ireland a better place for her people.

They have shamed the country. Do they really think European and American politicians are impressed with the flash trappings of parish pump gombeen men jumping out of their limos? Public service my ass. FF know all about SELF-SERVICE. Just look at the bloated faces on the front bench and read the 'books' by their covers! Gluttony in all its manifestations.

It looks like things can only get worse if the predicted spending cuts materalise + the cuts in public service pay.

I just wanted to rely to, pet - there is no reason why your Dad's GP shouldn't be able to take the blood sample and have it sent to beaumont - or any suitable hospital with the shortest lab times and have it analysed. The last time I had a blood test (I need them every 6 months) was in July and the results were back within three weeks. Dec 1st!! There is no reason or excuse for that.

To all these interminable moaners - for God's sake just pay for health insurance and stop complaining. I bet there's not a single complainer on here who has his own health insurance . The problem arises when you expect everything for free. You pay for your car insurance, your home insurance, etc. You don't complain that they're not free at the State's expense - you get a good service precisely because they are not. You get a good service when a thing is paid for. Just be honest & put your health before all the wasteful expenses that make up most people's so called "cost of living".

Even after substantial increases this year, my VHI renewal was about €840. That's about €70 a month, just over €2 a day. And if any complainers tell me they have not got two or three euros a day, well then, just add up the cost of cigarettes, booze, pizzas, mobile phones, pay tv, broadband, overeating, overheating, unnecessary journeys, clothes, in fact just look at the cost of what's in your bin every week. Ireland has no shortage of money for waste. Fact is, if you are just honest about your priorities & eliminate waste, you can live well even on a social welfare income of €12,000 a year and still afford your health insurance (& two holidays a year). A few weeks ago in response to another poster I posted details of how to do this, but the editor rejected it as "too long".

And please don't anyone say health is already paid for via PRSI etc. In that case those who pay their VHI should not have to pay PRSI. It is in fact only another form of tax revenue.

kbn,

Get real-it would be very difficult to do all the things you say on 12,000 a year. Many people cannot afford health insurance. Thank God I can still stretch to it but why do I get the impression that you have no feel for the less fortunate among us & do not know what it is to do without.

Actually kbn you are wrong. Paying health insurance might make a difference between having someone else in your room or being there alone if you are admitted for a scheduled treatment, but when it comes to life and death and A&E situations, it makes NO difference. My parents paid high health insurance all their lives and for the family...the two times my mother was unfortuante enough to end up seriously and suddenly in need of medical attention (car crash and scepticemia) she was still left waiting on a trolley. Illness does not differentiate between class.

Kbn, I like half the population of the country have health insurance. I am very lucky, it is paid through my employer. But given that we all pay tax, PRSI, high levels of VAT, health levies - healthcare is not exactly free, so why should anyone - especailly those who are struggling with household bills have to pay for it a second time? Car and home ownership is not a basic entitlment - health is. What do you think should be eliminated from the cost of living for struggling families so thay can pay for healthcare twice? I don't smoke, drink litle, don't know when I last had a pizza, I have a mobile phone as a basic piece of communicaton eqiupment - which cost 19 euro, (Cheaper than a landline), I don't have pay TV and can't afford to over-eat. This is in common with most people I know. Broadband is a neccessity for work, along with heating and clothing. What unneccessary journeys? I would sincerely love to know how you could live well on 12,000 a year when the mortgages for most very average 2 bed terraced houses are that alone in a single year - 1,000 a month is about average. Should my family freeze and starve or just live on the side of the road? Maybe you could break your post on how to do that up into several smaller ones as frankly it is quite impossible

To "brandy",

oh dear - lots of assumptions. ASS-U-ME, that makes an "ASS" out of "U" and "ME". Instead of attacking me personally, maybe focus on what i said?

for your information, i do not live in Dublin 4, nor do I support Lisbon Treaty (or any previous one), nor have I ever voted for FF, FG, Labour or any other party that supports the economic & social status quo (i.e. consumer-society/waste model which, as predicted by environmetal groups 20-30 years ago, has led to present chaos). I have marched through Dublin against the naked imperialism of the USA invasions of Iraq & Afghanistan, & against the continuing (and unchallenged) holocaust carried out by Israel in occupied Palestine, the "international community's" acceptable face of facism... I sponsor third world children through World Vision, & have fund-raised for Concern, Gorta, Trocaire, Goal, Rape Crisis Centre, & Barnardos. No feel for the less well off, as you say.

I have cared for elderly relatives since 2000, and i live on the Social Welfare Carers Allowance which is about €12,000 a year so i know what i am talking about. Yes i take your point about rent. I worked hard in my career to own my own home, and only then (voluntarily) moved out of paid work. The key to living on limited income is waste. The philosophy of frugality however goes far beyond mere waste avoidance (that's only the bonus). It extends your skills & abilities, deepens your understanding, & broadens your mind. When your life is enriched in this way, you only put out your black bin once per year. Over consumption & waste are the therapies we use for our impoverished lives, and my only point was that their cost (yes, go on, cost the example i listed) is far - FAR - greater than the health insurance we claim we can't afford, that's all i said - the rest you made up in your head without knowing me!

And if the editor will allow me, i'll try again to post that detail of how to live on €12k. Yes of course I know that not everyone's circumstances will permit it - but everyone can take some thing of value from it, and that is the way we solve our problems - not by complaining & doing nothing, but by applying our brain and taking control of the economies and diseconomies within our own personal lives.

respect.

Ahhh - Kbn, if I may reply. Hope you don't mind Brandy. So you already own your own home and are therefore no longer subject to a mortage and so can afford the freedom to give up paid work and have the kindness to devote time to charitable causes. Ahh Great, well for you but remember not all of us are in so fortunate a position. If my mortgage is the average 1000 a month simply for a roof over my head than regardless of extending my skills & abilities or deepening understanding, I simply cannot live on 12,000 a year - it is mathematically impossible. Like most I know, my waste is negligible. I don't know what a black bin is but about the only think we leave out for refuse collection is meat warapers as it is unhygenic to leave them around and any plastic wrappers which come with fruit bought. Our refuse sack goes out about 4 times a year - doing otherwise would not be sanitary forn us at any rate. "Over consumption & waste are the therapies we use for our impoverished lives" - where did you borrow that soundbite from? If you're impoverished you cannot afford to waste - very few bar the rich can. I would still be fascinated by you accounting which wold allow anyone, even a single person or someone with no children with rent or an average current mortgage to live on 12,000 a year.

to "buzz",

i agree you are right on this point. My own father had this same experience in his eighties after a lifetime of paying VHI. What i would say however is that if all patients paid (either personally or by their insurance) for all hospital admissions & treatments, it would dramatically reduce the financial & budgetary pressures & constraints under which the health system currently operates, competing as it obviously does with all the other demands on central tax revenue. In this case, perhaps people like your mother & my father might have had the dignity they deserved, instead of being compromised by selfishness on the part of others?

To "anonymous",

thanks for your reply, family circumstances and age can make a big difference. I will try to repost the formula, but be warned, it is quite radical! Certainly it would challenge certain taboo subjects & sacred cows that are never questioned but which largely dictate societal norms in our day.

How to live on €12,000 a year (PART 2)...

continuing from previously posted PART 1, I genuinely & sincerely hope the foregoing challenge is a help and/or inspiration to at least somebody.  It is just the tip of the iceberg, there is much more to be said about living differently.  Apart from anything else, such a change would eliminate a vast amount of Health Care costs & consequently all need for talk of cuts at all, which is the original subject of this dscussion.  A healthy society would be proud of how few hospitals it needs, not how many.

Here goes then...

Mortgage €507

Groceries €250

Pub once a week €60

Home Insurance €20 (use 123.ie)

Health Insurance €50 (use Aviva instead of VHI)

Car insurance/tax €60

Electricity/phone €40

Doctors, mobiles, bins, tv, newspapers, books, music - zero.

Monthly Total? It comes to €980 per month.

Social Welfare income? €1,000 per month (€12,000 year)

Odd jobs, repairs, gardening, editing, auctions sales, etc. €100

Profit?  €120 per month.  That's about €1,440 per year - enough for Spring & Autumn holidays in France.  Just don't tell Social Welfare.

I havbe never read such rubbish. This thread has outlived its usefulness.

Hi KBN,

Do you not think it was a bit irresponsible & yes selfish dare I say to give up your job voulintarily & expect the taxpayers to look after you & your relative. Would it have not been more responsible to stay working & use your excess income to help augment the home help type care your relative would most likely have been eligible for.

Well now!! Sounds (just a little) like a fascist dictatorship i.e. 'Do what Kbn says' and stop your moaning. Doubtless this thesis will be welcomed by those who would have us believe the Depression is all the fault of the ordinary middle and working class citizens.

However our circumstances dictate that in order to keep a roof over our heads, we need to work. Working near where I live would mean a salary drop of about 12,000 at least - again impossible if we want to keep a roof over our head. Where I work means either a 50 minute drive or 2 and half hours by several buses - each way!! That would be a waste of 16 hours of my week, exhaust me, affect my efficiencies in work and mean I spend no time with my family. My husband however can and does take public transport to work. We don't have cable/ satellite TV, in fact we don't watch it much as it is. My source of magazines is second-hand and we rarely buy newspapers. The library is a great idea for books - especially for children who go through them so quickly. I find second-hand shops a good source of books as well and you're giving something to charity. We're not vegetarians and to be honest my husbands' job is physically demanding enough that he needs that bioavailable form of protein.
Meat after all is something we have evolved to eat and lean meat is one of the best protein sources and has a place in a healthy diet. Vegetables, rice, noodles and grain do come with packaging tho and this is not always biodegradeable. It is kinder of course to animals to be vegetarian. Growing our own food would be an ideal - if we all had gardens and of course time. We recycle all we can and I confess that for years (even after I had left Uni) I was a fan of second hand clothing shops. I would AMAZE you what people get rid of, truely. Certain things ARE worth buying new but the trick is to know which things and not to throw away money on second hand items which are going to cost you more in the long run. Freecycle and

A respone for Kbn - (PART 2). I split my post as well just inc ase it was too long also.

Freecycle and

gumtree websites are very good though. " going around half naked" - tell me do you live in the tropics? :-). The problem may be that offices are usually heated to 22 degrees or so, so that when office workers come into a normal indoor temperature at home, they feel cold and up goes the thermostat. Due to an autoimmune condition that myself and my son have (and the fact that I'm a woman :-) elimination of all medicines is simply not an option - unless I want to get very very sick. Fair play to you on the 17 year old car! Respect where it's due. Tell us - what mileage is on it? We use mobiles and do not have landline as the mobile works out far cheaper than landline calls. Sponsoring children instead of producing your own as there are so many in such dire circumstances is noble and laudable aim and a selfless one - altho we do both but bear in mind that the drive to reproduce is that on which our whole evolution is based. You cannot simply turn that off unless you are already

a person or couple who are child-free by choice. And of course once you bring them into the world you cannot send them back ;-)

Ok, who chose EXCELLENT? Seriously................

kbn

Your post for formula:- To Live Well on a Social Welfare income of €12,000 a year + 2 holidays to France a year. Can you send out another formula when come next budget day if they may lower all payments right across the board to all social welfare recipients, what will they all do? Those who are out sick, unemployed, those with long term illnesses!!! Note you said (Pub once a week €60) this amount = €240 per every 4 weeks) plus we can get 2 holidays in France each year from nixers I would call them, but don't tell social Welfare! Oh and you left out the cost of a MOT Test for car per every two years. You have a car for the last 17 years, did you have MOT tests done on same. Oh you also left out Life Assurance Cover in your formula.

Thanks but no thanks I would go by the advice of an informed adviser the likes of MABs.

Chrissie

I  can guess what party flag this guy is waving !!!

And like many others in the black economy,,, take a couple of holidays a year in the Bahamas or such-that is the worst form of traitorism..    Working and drawing social welfare-that is the pits,,,, you gave up a good tax paying job, to work in the black economy, and fraud the rest of us, and encourage the pitiful system and payments some of us cannot get by on.  [ probably claiming disability / mobility as well ]

If I thought you were spoofing, I could smile,,, but NO, you are boasting that you are living a good life, in the black economy, ... it just is not on !!

Bye !     Peter  47

to "brandy",

you're right i am in a minority in this forum, & under democracy the majority view prevails.  However experience (especially recent experience!) suggests this may not always be for the best.  Democracy has its flaws, & counting heads is much less valuable than counting what is IN the heads.  However i thank you for not resorting to rudeness or personal offence, as your posts are always courteous & polite.

to "ab", "anony",

why don't we compare notes in about 5 years time & see just whose view turns out to be "pitiful" or rubbish"!

to "coco",

i accept your point about staying in work, however i decided to make the sacrifice, and for me it was a big sacrifice - if it was "selfish", then it is "selfish" to give up your career for someone you love.  As for taxpayers supporting me, nothing could be less true, as my decision saves taxpayers vastly more than asking the State to shell out taxpayers' cash to pay for my "babysitting" while I maintain my own career.  That, perhaps, might possibly be somewhat selfish, no?  Again, however thank you for your courtesy & politeness.

To "sceptical",

at this stage nobody (Green or otherwise) needs to "tell you what to do" - the writing is on the wall for all to see.  You may ridicule Green policies, but those policies are what will save the world for you & your children, & if their achievements are less than optimal, this is only because their coalition partners outweigh them numerically - if FF was the junior partner in a Green government, THEN you would see the magic that would make even Obama look like a stick-in-the-mud.

To "anonymous",

what can i say?  A huge joy to read all you say (parts 1,2 & 3!).  Thoughtful, reasoned, tempered, and humorous too.  A breath of fresh air on this topic, i have reread your post many times & I have the height of respect for the points you make, which - to other people's possible dismay - are similar to my own points - perhaps this is the kind of minority that's a better place than some majorities?  Clearly you do have extra costs - I recognized this in earlier posts.  Re your queries, yes i did still have a mortgage when i left work (that's why i need €12k !), not sure what you mean "accommodating my cost base"(?), car has 75k miles, tv licence is free for Carers.  Thank you so much for the time & effort it takes to make so comprehensive a post.  All of what you say supports my (seemingly controversial) claim that there ARE ways in which we can afford to pay health insurance. Please post some more thoughts.

True Chrissie. MABS give great help and advice to all sorts of people and they are the professionals. Yes, well spotted Kbn leaves out the NCT test - 50 euro every two years now and it's the law. Plus a car will need maintenance and servicing. He also states that TV is free but I and most people would have to pay a TV license - unless they are on a pension. Also he does not include heating - a fill of oil or gas would be around 600 euro. And of course meeting the needs of children - school, childcare etc has to be taken into account for the vast majority of us.

Not reporting payment for odd jobs to social welfare could be something they would take a very dim view of, as they would also take a dim view of claiming job seekers allowance but not actively seeking work.

Very good posts at 85 and 86. Of course in (my!) ideal world we would not be meat eaters (as we would not have the desire or biological need for meat) but I think to be kind to animals (which is of course very important) one does not necessarily have to resort to being a veggie. I have had this argument with people before. Animal rights worlers are often smeared with the same brush - that is - the idea that we want everyone to be veggies - not so! (not for me anyway) I believe that a proper, nutritional and sustainable diet shoudl include meat BUT it is the WAY meat is produced, kept and slaughtered that I have an issue with. I have no pronelm for example eating a steak if I know that the meat is ethically sourced and free range. I would NOT on the other hand, eat the meat off a battery hen after it becomes a "table hen" nor would I eat suckling pig or veal. It is all about moderation and proper, reponsible farming. Humans tend to apply their nasty methods to everything in an effort to meet consumer and greedy materialistic trends, instant gratification and all that.

Re having children yes the population is expanding but I dont think I could sacrifice having a child! So I agree the biological "clock" takes precedence! :)

Undoubtedly, deomcracy has its flaws - but can you suggest a better system? I would hope you are not suggesting autocracy or dictatorship. After all, who decides what is the most valuable of what is IN peoples heads? The voting public - and that, again IS democracy. I do not understand your mathematics, in your response to Coco. You are currently costing the tax payer 12,000 per year. Had you stayed in work in lets say a well paying job, you would have contributed 8,000 a year, There the tax payer is 20, thousand worse off you you staying to unemployment assistance - so ow does that save tax payers any more? I would really love to know how many people the state pays out to, in order to pay for their "babysitting" while those persons earn their living. Maybe you're not aware but childcare is not a state sponsored facility here. In fact it is not, as far as I am aware, or at least it wasn't up to a few years ago, even tax deductable. Perhaps it is down to their government partners but increasingly green policies are seen as just another tax stuck with which to beat taxpayers.

Thank you tho for for your kind comments on my posts - I think I mayt have posted them in the incorrect order but I'm sure you figured the sequence ok.

I

Helo Chrissie

I agree with you 100%. .... I think....

My last post was severly eddited,, probabbly of necessity...

I did call the sponger involved in this discussion a "TRAITOR", and said a few other things which did not pass through editing !

Yes, our poster who boasts of 2 holidays every year in France, is working in the Black Economy, paying no tax, on his nixers, and fraudlently taking money each week from the National Coffers,,,, that means OUR POCKET.

And he BOASTS about it.

Having another bad day ,,, Cheers,,, Peter 47

don't know how, but some people on this discussion seem to have got the wrong end of the stick, for example Chrissie, who exactly is claiming unemloyment benefit as you say? Certainly not me, I have never done so.  I gave up work to do a much harder job than i had in the office.  I care full time for two elderly relatives both of whom suffer both physical & mental ailments.  A typical working day can often be 10-12 hours.  The only paymet I receive for this is a means tested Carers Allowance payment (for one, not both of them) which amounts to about €220 a week - hardly a profitable enterprise as some other posts suggest, someone for example going on about the Bahamas - please read the FULL discussion thread before talking like this.  Carers Allowance is not a handout for idlers, but a (very limited) regognition of work NOT recognized by the conventional employment "market".  You should also know that the recipient is permitted to work part-time up to 10 hours a week while receiving the allowance, & I can assure you that what you have rather offensively called "nixers" falls well within this. 

To "anonymous" re the "maths", yes i might have paid €8k in tax had i stayed in a (comparatively comfortable) job, however you forget that the full burden of the care of my relatives would then have fallen on the State.  The cost to taxpayers of keeping even ONE person (not two) in nursing care amounts to €48,000 (minimum).  So really, who's making the real sacrifice here, honestly? Also - sorry for confusion - i used the term "babysitting" to refer to elderly relatives, no reference to childcare intended!

By the way, is there more than one "anonymous", or have you really posted 10,714 posts?  Would you not consider getting a separate name?

I am at a loss to know where some of this hostility is emanating from - the only point i have made from the start is that - even on the most restricted income - it is possible to pay for our own health insurance, & in fairness i've gone to the trouble to show how.  I think a lot of what i have put out there has been distorted. This always happens when the status quo is challenged. Votes for women, freedom for slaves, justice for "indians", aborigines, Palestinians - all of these have been twisted and resisted in their time by those who are happy as things are.  I just think we should be less selfish and make sacrifices for the sake of others, whether they are other citizens, other races, other living creatures, and in fact every created thing. 

Not to get off topic but I think Buzz made a very good point about a lot of cruelty to animals being in the way they are raised and farmed.

kbn, part of my last post was cut - maybe it was too long. I'll try and remember what I was saying :). Thank you for your kind comments on my posts. When I mentioned accomodating my cost base, I had thought your mortgage was finished but you were including sample mortgage figures to try to show how it was possible even with a mortgage to live in 12,000 a year. 75k miles on the car - so that's how you;ve mnaged to keep it for 17 years! At 17 years old, our car would have 250K miles on it - just from the daily commute alone, so pretty much an impossibiity to keep it for so long in my and most peoples cases. Also a car needs maintenence, servicing, NCT etc. Yes, there are ways in which we can afford to pay health insurance. But tell me, given the fact that we pay income tax, VAT, (some of the highest in Europe), PRSI & health levies and pay for a public health service, why on earth do you think the squeezed tax payer should have to pay out for that service (right?) yet again? One more thought, and we have been doing this for years without really noticing but now I believe it has a name :) - skillswap. It's like a kind of bartering but for services or skills that people are good at.

Hi kbn, thank you for the clarification on the carers allowance. Tell me, since when did the term "nixer" qualify as offensive. Last time I heard it used it was simply a normal phrase of speech.

Yes, I see your calcualtion now in terms of tax paid versus the burden of care but you se ein reality the burden of care may noit have fallen on the state considering it seems to be next to impossible to get a nursing home place so ultimately the burden of paying for that care, would have fallen, again to you. Ten thousand posts? Good gosh no, nowhere near it. I was using my name but then discover that there was several people with the same name as myself, so I went anonymous as I thought it would avoid confusiuon. Maybe I need to use my middle name as well.

Yes, you have shown that it is possible for some people in some circumstances and situations to pay for private health insurance afterlal, half the country does but my point, which I made twice and was not posted, is that given that we payt tax, PSRI, some of the highest VAT in Europe, health levies and income levies and pay for hte public system, wy do you think the tax payer should have to pay yet again for provate health.

kbn Re: your post #97 In reply to this I did not get the wrong end of the stick. What you wrote in this post concerning myself well I wish you to know that I never implied or even thought that you were drawing unemployment benefit and doing nixers. I read all your posts up to the time I sent in my 1st post and did read on your post #73 "I have cared for elderly relatives since 2000 & I live on the social welfare allowance which is about €12,000 a year and you voluntarially moved out of work.

Where I think disarray presented itself was the way in which you presented your Formula which you summarised on a €12,000 Social Welfare Payment, but omitted to state what welfare it came under e.g. OAPs, sickness benefit, invalidity benefit, widows/widowers, jobseekers allowance etc., What I wrote in my post #96 was "Maybe it is time we the people that know those who do this ring up". I did not mean yourself, but those who we all may know who are long term spongers drawing dole money and working illegally. I totally disagree with what you say in your last paragrgraph in post #97 "even on the most restricted income it is possible to pay for our own health insurance". I cannot afford to pay private health insurance. I would wish you to know our Republic was not set up to go the "Private Health Care for everyone" and what will our Health Service do with all those through no fault of their own that do get sick, became unemployed with our recession, lost their homes by not being able to keep ahead of their medium to high mortgages. I believe Mary Hearney wants an exact replica of the United States. That we all have Private Medical Cover, and if we do not have it the people of Ireland pay a hard price linger on suffering and waiting, or maybe even die.

I have another post to follow this one, reason being not to make this one too long to read.

kbn

Here's my 2nd post to you, and hope it will be beneficial. Checked means testing carer's allowance it be around €220 Per Week x 52 = €11,440. It be actually €220.50 per week.  But yourself caring for 1 incapacited person are also entitled to the Respite Care Grant of €1,700 paid out once every June of each year since 2007.

I also read that if one Carer is also looking after 2 or more incapacited persons they are entitled to a means tested payment of €330.75 Per Week and also be entitled to receive 2 payments for respite care totaling €3,400 per year. There are 2 types of Carers Allowance, (1) Carer's Benefit that's means tested. (2) Carer'a Benefit which is slightly higher in payment to those who give up work to look after an incapacited person full time. Yes you can work etc., for up to 15 hours per week - but leave someone else with person/persons, and I trust you do this.

I just tell you what I've found. So I not be distorting or twisting, all I pointed out was, we could not live on the Formula you suggested here, and to those who work illegally. If you wish contact Social Welfare and ask for Carer's Section or contact Citizens Information they will inform you of your entitlements due to you and what are your rights, you maybe entitled to claim for both relatives you are looking after.

Hi KBN,

In your formula for living well you advise people to give up work to avoid paying Tax as that is where most of their outlay goes. You generalise too much in your formula full stop! If people were to do as you say the country would grind to a halt their would be no money for social welfare, health care, education, etc, all essential services would cease to exist. Your formula may work well for you as a single male, but you err seriously in suggesting it as a blueprint for others to live their life by.

Hi Chrissie,

Many politicians have advocated health insurance for all with the state assuming responsibility for paying this for the less well off. This sounds like it could be the fairest option for us all as then we would all have equal access.

hi

never mind mary harney, all the goverment are all the same, promises, promises, thay dont care

WHY DO MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO WRITE POSTS GET INVOLVED IN PETTI BACK AND FORTH SLAGGING OF EACH OTHERS POSTINGS INSTEAD OF COMMENTING ON THE TOPIC SUGESTED

hi crissee

i claim carers allowance for my eldest, i get 220 for him and myself and 13 for my youngets, but what i want to no is y they have to tax this, if they tax this i might as well get nothing, its a bleeding disgrace,

We have one hundred and  sixty six elected representatives in this country.  Is it not time that the politicans stopped behaving like school children fighting in the school yard.  We should have an national government.  The best politicans should be picked from the three main parties and let them get on with  getting the country  out of this mess that we are now in.  Time for past  to be left in the past.  Courage is what is misssing in Dail Eireann.  Mary Harney has no courage only aggroance. She belongs to no political party but I guess you could say the PD'S are gone but sure she was Fianna Fail originally 

Hi purple Thanks for your post on 02/10/2009 14:07

Yes unfortunately from what you've told me as regards getting €13 for your youngest child, would I be right that your Husband is claiming for you as his spouse, and that be why they tax your Carer's Allowance.

The Tax Revenue give him an (€X amount of Tax Free Allowance per year) Then if he claims for credits such as bin charges, Union Fees etc., they add these on to his TFA. They also minus this €12,000 from his TFA per year and claw back 20% Tax of each €1 you get for your Carer's Allowance of €220 = €44 (Net total to you per wk = €176+€13) I say this sincerely, they cannot tax the €13 which is the half benefit for your youngest child. Obviously where the difference lies is in your husband's Net Pay Cheque. I haven't even added on levies. If you do have a medical card for your eldest, get him to inform his employer and show card. There will be a reduction of 2% levy for card and rebate paid.

Checked out "home carer tax credits" found when receiving Carer's Allowance it is taxable when you get more than €6,000 per year. If my summary be correct, would you not appeal that they give credits for your eldest child. After all if you were not able to look after him/her it would cost our state much more. Just google search children needing care and fostering and see results. These payments are not taxable while other partner is working. I say this to point out to readers here that each indivual circumstances are different.

Just one more point Niall hope all's posted. purple if your husband became unemployed or sick bless him, he would only get €204.30 for himself + the half child benefit of €13. purple Total per week for both of you, and two children = €450 then it becomes non taxable. I agree with you It's a bleeding disgrace.

Chrissie

hi chrisse

no my husband isnt claiming for me, that was stopped as soon as i started claiming carers allowance, and people thought that i was getting more i wasnt, all we get is a miserable 40 euros in our money put together, and with rent going up and other things , that goes on it,

hi again

my husband is not working he is claiming un benfit, so i dont no why people think that we are getting more, my son doesnt work either, he is in a training course,

kbn In response to your post 02/10/2009 You're entitled to your opinion just like the rest of us, but if you look at Mary Harney's Record to date:- What has she really done so far? "She's taken too long to instigate her proposals for proper health care to all whether it be public or private". She's not putting health care first & foremost on her List of priorities and this is her Job to do so. She's biding her time until next general election when she will definately be ousted out. I believe the Dept., of Health & the HSE is a double whammy, there are too many administrators, CEOs Advisers, and more advisers.

She's not delivering a proper care service when all the people who need care are put back, postponed appointments, waiting appointments for years, hundreds of cancelled operations, switching hospitals from one site to another. Still not making Centres of Excellence all in Dublin excellent for all those who need this from other Counties. Closing down more hospitals in other Counties. Closing more and more beds as we trek through this Recession. Why do we have on board all these Consultants, their teams, expertise Nurses, but not enough beds to look after those who need it? No wonder posters here can sometimes get angry. I believe her battered reputation will never be restored.

Brandy says it all, he not only speaks logically, but speaks from the heart. THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY IN IRELAND I also agree with this statement.  I tell the true story of a man we know aged 62 who recently took a mild heart attack. His GP sent him to hospital. They admitted him, and over about 9-10 days found his prognosis. He needs 3 bypasses hopefully can be done the balloon way by the carotoid artery up to his heart. Well we are very upset because even though he was diagnosed, he was sent home and put on a waiting list told it could be 3 to 6 months to admit him and carry out his operation. He has a wife, children, and grandchildren. It is so unreal that his Family and everyone that knows him cannot comprehend why they discharged him back to his home.

Chrissie

Hi purple

Oh my God I am so sorry - when I read you got half benefit for youngest I thought that your Husband had full PRSI Contributions and that's where I have believed your Husband is working, Sorry again.

It seems what Social Welfare did was just juggle figures around to give you carer's allowance, then lower your Husbands unemployment benefit, and for this all yous gained was a measley €40 for you to look after your Son under carer's payment. Then as you told me they higher your rent payments on this €40. In my way of thinking, "This is not a fair deal to your Family". If you have not contacted Citizens information I urge you to. Maybe they can guide you to appeal this decision made by Social Welfare. I hope they can bring this to Mary Hanafin's attention our Minister for Social and Family Affairs and just maybe, I hope so, and see where they went wrong with this decision.

Regards

Chrissie

hi chrisse

its ok, there is no need to say sorry, it goes to show you that the government can do what they like to people.

hi

mary harney gives me a pain in my a***, who does she think she is, she is always making promises about the state of the health services. I was sent to casually by my physio as they could do my physio as it was too painful for me, i was sent down for an xray, i had to wait up to 4  hours, i was in terrible pain, had a terrible headache as it was too warm and packed in the hospital.

Hello all.

Well the polls do not lie.

3% excellent  vs  54% poor,,,,,  Isn't it a shame we must have this travesty of Dictatorship maintained.

Is there any light at the end of the black hole we have for a Health Service  ?

Mary Hearney thinks things were never so good.

Professor Drum, is getting his big bonus backdated to 2007....  I thaught we had dismissed this on several different forums on this site,,,   anyway what is another €70,000 wasted going to change anything...  it was already agreed, or so we are told,,,, 

 [ just about €1,300+ EVERY WEEK thats all,,,  only 6 times my weekly Invalidity payment  !!!!   ]

  Short controversy to day in Dail chambers... yer man from FAS it seems would have got the brown envelope even if he was sacked on the spot....   what good would the €1,100,000 do in the present fiscal situation ??  well for a start, it should never have been paid out,,,, he should have been sent straight to jail as an example...    The day is coming when starving people will be sent to jail for stealing bread,,, it happened before, and is about to happen again,,, only saving grace is he will have to be fed in Mountjoy,,, but his family be still left to starve...

Our fair land, in days of yore was known as the land of saints and scholars,,, but now it is known the world over, as the land of Sickness and Corruption.

The golden circle are still smiling all the way home from the bank, and their buddies in exploitation and land dealings, are being paid out by NAMA  [ in a couple of days ]..

 meanwhile the bankers are getting ready to forclose [next week ] on 135,000 householders who are in difficulty with the exorbatant mortgages they were forced to take on to put a roof over their familys head !

THE WHOLE GAVERNMENT IS A STINKING MESS OF CORRUPTION AND SPIN.

But the wheel goes around, the expression "you'll get yours" is the new buzz word about to hit the leaders of this once proud and great land, we call our homeland.

IT HAS TO END NOW.

Do the idiots not know that when you  reduce the size of wage packets, you reduce the amount of PRSI deductable, also the available money left over for "spending" will be minimal, and VAT income will fall through the floor,,, a downward spiral or what ??

CAN THE PRESIDENT DISBAND THE GOVERNMENT ???????????

If the answer is yes,,, will someone give her a ring  NOW.

Peter   47

Peter 47 - why do you want someone else to phone the President - why not do it yourself. This is the Irish problem - always leave it to someone else and say 'why dont yees'. I am saying to you - why dont YOU.

Peter, dont delude yourself by thinking that a change of govt will make any difference now, after the majority have  handed over our sovereignty and ripped up our constitution with the Yes vote for Lisbon.

In case you havent realised the consequences, all directions will come from Brussels in the future and our lucky ministers will be just glorified pen pushing civil servants, albeit with bigger wages.

However I do agree that FF should be kept out of govt for the next 20 years.

Hello Anony

I know it is incredible today,,,, but I do not have access to a telephone at this time !

I cannot find an e-mail address for the president, or I would have passed on my thaughts long ago.  If you have a contact, please feel ferr to save and forward my thaughts.

regards        Peter  47

IN THE AWARDING OF THE 70,000 EURO TO PROFESSOR DRUMM, MARY HARNEY SAYS SHE HAS NO DECISION IN THAT. SHE SAYS IT IS THE BOARD WHO MADE THAT DECISION, YET IT IS SHE WHO APPOINTS THE BOARD. TO ME MARY HARNEY IS NOT FIT FOR THE IMPORTANT POSITION  AS MINISTER FOR HEALTH. A NEW NAME FOR HARNEY AND DRUMM====LAUREL & HARDY.

Hi purple - Hope you won't be too long suffering your pain due to the horrendous health care proviided in our Ireland. One thing for sure and I believe we all know it, no way come next "General Election" will Mary Harney be re-elected, she'll go. We might just even see an election before their term FF is up in 2011. Regards.

Brandy thanks for your reply much appreciated. Peter 47 read your post I for one will ring the President, and I understand where you're coming from with no 'phone. I will also email her. Her address is webmaster@president.ie if others who read this wish to email our President please put in your full name, address, For the attention of:- President Mary McAleese, and what you're writing about. I recommend giving full address because they are able to check that we be on live registrar. Give as much information as one can. Let her see what Mary Hearney do to those who need medical intervention and don't receive it in a timely manner.

When emailing one can also type in where they see Cc: (complete copy) that be firstname.last.name@oireachtas.ie Seeing as we're discussing Mary Hearney on this site, her email address is info@maryhearney.ie

I just say this hoping that all those who are effected by her actions, and there are a lot perhaps we should inundate our President to tell her our true life stories with the health system here, and the more she may receive, hopefully she will have her secretary write back to us through post. I google searched email addresses for TDs Senators and oireachtas, found a lot of emails on them. One can also go into each different political party and find their email addresses there. I just say this here as a helping tool to those who wish to complain to their electorate, and the President.

Peter thanks for your posts here.

Chrissie      

Chrissie, your email address for the President is to the webmaster, who will not pass the message on to her - that is not his job. Also your email address for Mary Harney is incorrect and will be returned to you. I do hope you are not trying to put people the wrong way.

Hello Chrissie , and all,

Many thanks for the info on contacting Mary McAleese.

I have e-mailed Mary Harney a couple of times with a link from IRL.gov,,, but got no reply,,, from her or her secretary...

I do not think she would reply to posts from people refering her to this group.

But !   one never knows,,, she will need  all the help she can get, to save her from the final brown envelope !

It is surely a shame she has wasted her talents,,,, at one time I thaught she had a good future in politics,,,   but having the social concience for the state of the medical industry,,, she has failed dismally, in my opinion.

She got health ministry because no one elst wanted it, and thats for sure !

If she continues to close regional hospitals we will end up with a heap of redundancies in front line medicne, this is the reverse of when she travelled the world recruiting for staff, in places like the Phillipines,,, this will leave more families depending on Social Welfare, and an even bigger National Debt.

Wishing her luck, is a guaranteed waste of time.

cheers     Peter   47

Anony

" Chrissie, your email address for the President is to the webmaster, who will not pass the message on to her - that is not his job. "

And how do you know this? Do you know what the role of a webmaster is exactly? This is the primary email address for getting in contact with Áras an Uachtaráin as per this website http://www.president.ie/index.php?section=4⟨=eng

" Also your email address for Mary Harney is incorrect and will be returned to you. I do hope you are not trying to put people the wrong way. "

Again as per the following website for getting in contact with and requesting information about Mary Harney found here http://www.maryharney.ie/ when you click on send email to minister you are giving the email address as the following info@maryharney.ie

I am not trying to put people the wrong way in regards to this. I am just trying to help people so that we can email both if we so wish.

Chrissie

Hello, Chrissie, anony is actually right on this one. The email in question is for the webmaster of the site, not the president. Thye role of a webmaster is quite commonly known in IT sectors and it's mainly to update and maintain websites and their functions. So you might be better to write to her. The address for Mary Harney from the website you've posted does seem to be correct tho. However, the DOHC website lists the folowing address also : Minister's_Office@health.irlgov.ie I hope this helps. Kind Regards.

Chrissie - If you go back to your original post you might see that you have Harney spelt 'Hearney' which would make a big difference if you tried to send an email. Normally a webmaster is used to design, develop and maintain a web site. The owner/business would have a separate address but is many of the official sites the webmaster is asked to filter out complaints and superfluous mail. I am just trying to help too.

On the second point - Chrissie you gave Marney's email address as 'hearney'. This spelling of her name is incorrect and would not go through as an email.

Bruised - do not get too alarmed or excited about that 3% - In any poll there are always those who for their own personal reasons will try to defend the indefensible.

About the famous 3%, how many got it right when Columbus said the earth was round, or when Galileo said the Sun and the planets weren't all going around the earth?  Not even 3%.  People need to ask the bigger questions and look beyond their own nose. 

A more relevant discussion question would be "why are so many of us ill in this country?"  There are some obvious answers but it would still be a useful discussion.  People are healthier in Cuba, and Cuba has the best health service in the world because it can do its job without being swamped (in spite of US sanctions that make our own  "cutbacks" laughable)

(ps - please, no repeat insults, enough last time!)

Anony

mmm...myself typing Hearney - you typing Marmey seems techy....so we both made spelling mistakes. I phoned the President's no: which you'll find phone number and Lo-Call no: on my previous post here to you. I inquired about her official email address. Was told her official contact email address is webmaster@president.ie this indeed is her official email address if one wants to email her. Also told that a couple of staff sort out emails, the ones addressed for the attention of our President will get to her, but it takes a couple of days to do this as she gets a lot of emails. As regards Mary Harney's email address I sent on my last post. This email address is where she sits in her 3 different Clinics info@maryharney.ie The other email address for Mary Harney for Department of Health & Children is minister's_office@health.irlgov.ie I got help about the role of Webmasters. A Webmaster is not a Web Designer.

I have emailed to the 3 addresses above, given my views and await replies, Hopefully I do get feedback. Just like you and the posters here have had their say re: Mary Harney, well I believe she is the Worst Minister for Health since the inception of our Free State.

Chrissie 

Anonymous Thanks for sending me Mary Harney's email address for dept., of health, I also emailed her with my views of our delapadated health system. It prompted me to go into this website "Department for Health & Children" and see what's there, as I was more into the different HSE Sites. When I clicked on Role and Mission: it read:-

Our mission is: To improve the health and well-being of people in Ireland in a manner that promotes better health for everyone, fair access, responsive and appropiate care delivery, and high performance.

It makes my skin crawl to read such a statement, when in fact the opposite is happening, and being happening a long long time before our now World Wide Recession. The worst thing of all, that they our bl***y government don't give a damn about any human beings health or ill-health.

Chrissie

Hi anon- believe it or not those 3 % are actually allowed to have an opinion of their own, and whereas I don't agree with them re Harney, I think it IS wise to look beyond the obvious at times.

Hi Buzz,

Yes the 3% are undoubtedly entitled to their opinion but this is hardly the forum to discuss such rights - 100% of the population is entitled to a decent reliable health service.

The health service is shambolic, whatever the dreaming 3% thinks.

Hi KBN,

Apparently having health insurance does not protect people from the cutbacks. I have just heard of an individual who has private cover being on a waiting list for a surgical procedure where there were 30 such procedures carried out in 2008 & none this year.

Oh yes, they're entitled to have an opinion - no matter how wrong it is but seriously, anyone looking to Cuba for inspiration really on a different planet. I mean Cuba - their facilities (and I mean the ones for Cubans not the show pieces tourists see) are dilapidates, their equipment antiquated and there is a chronic lack of the absolute most basic neccesities as regards medicines (ones whichwe can buy in any shop or chemist) which has led to an enormous black market in medicine for any Cuban who has the money.

"Apparently having health insurance does not protect people from the cutbacks. I have just heard of an individual who has private cover being on a waiting list for a surgical procedure where there were 30 such procedures carried out in 2008 & none this year."

Interesting coco! Well then, Harney is doing ok compared to that.

Really odd sometimes, the assertions that are made here. 

Anonymous: your views on Cuban healthcare, commonly accepted amongst medics trained in the UK to be top quality, are to say the least odd. My brother worked as a medic there in cancer research for 5 years. The two pictures (his and yours) do not match.

Have you any evidence (apart from propaganda issued by right-wing Cubans in Florida) to back your claims?

I am sorry but an opinion, by the nature of it's very definition, cannot be wrong. You may disagree with it, but that is a different matter. Only claims of fact can be "right or wrong" - an opinion is entirely subjective and therefore is not confined to being "right" to suit others.

yes it's all true.  Cuba's facilities are dilapidated, their equipment antiquated (old machines no longer good enough for ourselves), and basic medicines (the ones we - who are always complaining - can buy in any chemist) are in chronic short supply!  All this due to the attentions of our old friend the United States.  And still - their public health service for the entire country runs on a budget less than Beaumont Hospital and is the envy of the world.  Medical students come from all every country in South America to study in Havana where their studies (and their board & lodgings) are provided free.  In turn, Cuban medics lecture and practice all over South America as well.  If this is a "different planet", perhaps it may not be an altogether bad one, and we on this planet could certainly learn a lot from their spirited resourcefullness and enthusiasm in the face of adversity we can not even conceive of.  Wonder if they waste much?

Two different ways of looking at the same thing (kbn and anonymous) but conveying totally different impressions of the system. Anonymous conveys disparagement. kbn understanding and approval. Thanks kbn. You confirm what I have previously been told. Whatever about the age of equipment, the successful and people-centred system which he described as "unique" in its focus and in the world keeps people healthy. It is absolutely NOT a two-tier system. Perhaps Mary Harney, instead of spending 700,000+ Euro on swanking about at conferences in the US, might have learned something about the rights of the people to proper health care had she visited Cuba.

Buzz, when opinions contradict facts, then yes they're wrong. If I opined that the earth was flat, I would be wrong. Sceptical, what I've stated about Cuban healthcare comes from Cubans living in Cuba including one Cuban doctor also living in Cuba. I didn't realise to be honest that there were right-wing Cubans in Florida issuing propaganda. kbn, given that they don't have the equipment, facilities or basic medicine, how on earth can their health system be said to 'run' at all? And believe me, it is not the envy of the world at all - in fact it is not even the envy of Cubans if you get to know and talk to them. Comparing it to South America is hardly the same as comparing it to France, Sweden or even the U.S. Cuban medics are sent to lecture and practice outside Cuba - in exchange for cheap oil and other resources, this is true. If the planet you want to be one is one of dilapidated facilities, outdated equipment and lack of basic medicine giving rise to a medicine black market, then you're welcome to it.

It could certainly be described as unique though how any system which cannot provide basic medicine and even vaguely modern equipment and facilities could be described as "successful" is beyond  me. Any system where people who can afford it have to buy basic medicine on the black market IS a two tier system, sadly.

Yes Anonymous, you would be wrong, but you would be mistaken in your idea of what fact actually is. In the case of what you were arguing over re Cubas healthcare system, one CAN have an opinion that the health system is GOOD, just as one can have an opinion that the health system is BAD. Whether it has  a good or bad health system is not a concise, defined and unchangeable fact...like the world being flat, therefore we ARE allowed to have opinions on it. The world being flat is not subjective or open to perception or interpretation of information...whether Cuba has a good health system...IS all of the above, and you are not the authority on it.

It is a sobering thought, if we are talking of the "fact" that the earth is not flat, that not too long ago people were tortured and put to death for questioning the "fact" that it WAS flat! Ditto for those who denied the equally well established and universally known "fact" that the sun and planets all orbited round the earth at the centre of the universe.  Sure couldn't any fool see it was a "fact" - you only had to see the sun came up in the east and went down on the other side at night.  So aways beware the man quoting "facts"!  Everything we see is through our own eyes and our own mind - both of which are monumentally fallible - and history proves that yesterday's "fact" is today's misguided "myth", the eternal testament to Man's enduring vanity.  When Socrates was asked how was he the wisest man to ever live and how did he know so much, he said "It is because I know only one thing - namely, that I know nothing".  There's wise for you.

To buzz & sceptical, I think we may be on the same wavelength. 

To Anonymous, aren't you missing my point about Cuba's health system?  My point was that despite all the inadequacies and privations you list, people are still healthier in Cuba than in the countries you prefer with all the costly machines and medicines.  Hence my original question - why are so many of us ill in our country?  Also don't twist things please - far from admiring Cuba's predicament I absolutely abhor it.  What I admire is the spirit that lives on in the face of such adversity and rises above it.  Cuba's catastrophic woes are due directly to American sanctions against the nation which have been in place now for 50 years with the (so far unsuccessful) aim of crushing the country and bringing it back within the American sphere of influence to the days when Sinatra and his mafia friends ruled the roost and ran the lucrative drugs, prostitution and abortion rackets with impunity.  And I don't see the famous Mr Obama doing much about ending it either.  If they can survive this for half a century, all i ask is what excuse have we in this country for our failings?

kb

• The health status of the Cuban population, vastly improved by the health care system since 1960, provided a sound foundation which could not be easily eroded.  By the 90s, Cuban children were being vaccinated against 13 childhood diseases -- more than any other country in the world, including the United States.  A host of diseases had been eradicated altogether, infectious diseases were at a minimum, and Cubans were dying of the same chronic conditions described in the mortality charts of industrialized countries.  A significant socio-political corollary was that the majority of Cubans trusted the health care system to work for them.
• Perhaps the most important single catalyst determining the positive outcome from the precarious 1990s was the presence of a solid community-oriented primary care network accessible to virtually every family in Cuba.  The family doctor-and-nurse teams, responsible for the health of some 150 families in a given neighborhood, concentrated their attention on health promotion, prevention of disease, environmental cleanup, priority attention to children and the elderly, prenatal care, and early detection of infection and chronic disease. 

The Cuban philosophy is “closed-loop” research, in which investigation priorities are based on priority health problems that need solving, whether outbreaks of disease (such as meningitis or hepatitis); the financial urgency of replacing expensive imported drugs; or the conditions that come with aging.  Research is carried out, and then results applied nationally and/or internationally, thus “closing the loop.”  Vaccine research is currently being carried out into such “neglected diseases” as cholera, dengue, tuberculosis and leptospirosis.

From: Medical Education Cooperation with Cuba. (MEDICC) a non-profit organization working to enhance cooperation among global health communities ...our experience has taught us that health care in the United States and developing countries alike – especially for under-served populations – can be informed by Cuba’s singular and evolving health practices, research and policies.

http://www.medicc.org/ns/index.php?s=11&p=0

We've surely had enough about Cuba and its health service.

I'm sure they make better use of their limited facilities than we do with ours.    Do they give bonuses for closing hospitals and rearranging the patients sleeping on trollies in hospital corridors? Our problem is here and now, not in Havana.

It appears that we are willing to accept that some people are going to die while waiting to see a consultant or waiting for treatment. Which is better, waiting for promises of centres ofexcellence or getting timely treatment like we used to get not so many years ago? Is sleeping on trollies a sign of progress?    

          Your first paragraph was indeed wise kbn. I see your point about people being healthier in Cuba - compared to the rest of Latin America and South America. But for any modern country, being healther than the developing world is not exactly a proud boast. I am glad to hear that you abhor Cuba's predicament and abhorr those responsible for it as well. Comparing it to our failings in terms of our health service is relevant too. Sceptial concentrating on what Cuba has done is probably a good lesson for developing countries in terms of vaccination programs etc but does not change the fac that it consists of dilapidated facilities and lack even the most basic madications and treatments, the former which Cubans desperately try to buy on the black market.

Bruisd, you are right. Our proble, is here and now and thankfully is not one where we are foieced to act illegally in order to procure aspirin.  But sleeping on trolley s and dying on waiting lists is not a sing of progress.

This discussion has taken a unusual twist discussing the merits or de merits of  Cuba's  health system. The ordinary Joe public like myself know nothing about & are too busy working to have the time to research such matters. Is this another case of the over educated & underemployed flexing their intellectual muscle in an attemt to lord it over the rest of us. 

"Our problem is here and now and thankfully is not one where we are foieced to act illegally in order to procure aspirin.  But sleeping on trolley s and dying on waiting lists is not a sing of progress." Anonymous

No indeed you will need to see your GP, pay the usual Euro 50 fee for and then whatever them chemist is charging today.

Aspirin in the UK and NI costs 35 pence for a pack of 16 over the counter.

My point is: we have nothing in the Republic of Ireland to be proud of; there is no proper health service for the majority of the people. There is, a PROPER health service in Cuba, in Europe and in the UK.

All the up-to-date equipment etc means nothing when the people are being ripped-off by a Neo-Con American system devised by Mary Harney. There is no such thing as a community Health Service. GPs run private businesses. People are not looked after on a community basis are they are elsewhere. People die in this Republic because they do not have money for private medicine.

It is all about private interests. It has been so since the state began. Remember how they - the medical profession, the Church and the politicians - crucified Dr Noel Browne when he wanted free treatment for mothers and children? What has changed?

coco

Thanks for your post on the 2nd Nov., you be right this discussion has taken an unusual twist, in fact I believe your complete post here to be right.

It be my opinion that we focus on Mary Harney's performance as health minister not Cuba's health system. Sure what's 3% anyway? not much it's like a miniscule droplet in the ocean. I checked polls here about Mary Harney since she became minister for health. Found quite a few. The 1st one "on her ratings after 6 months in office as health minister". Over the years ratings on irishhealth.com have gone further & further down for her performance on health which can be found here on Online Polls.

Chrissie 

Sceptical, with citizens having to buy aspirin on the black market and antibiotics being unavailable, along with dilapidated facilities and hugely outdated equipment, that is NOT something Cuba or any nation should be proud of - nor could it be considered a "proper" health service. That there is a proper health service in Sweden, France, Greece and also Turkey (at least Turkey 12 years ago at any rate) I agree. I know the UK is very proud of its NHS but also that like our own it is not without its very great and numerous faults - tho they are less prevalent.

I would agree with you on the Americanised system which Mary Harney seems so keen on. There has not been a community Health Service here in about 30 or 40 years, in my opinion. I do remember the great Dr. Noel Brown (just about) and how the medical profession, and politicians, in control of the Church, treated him when they felt they would lose some of their grip and control of the ordinary people if the state looked after its citizens.

Apologies to all those who would prefer to focus on their own problems. It is the perenial Irish problem ... talk. Mary Harney talks all the time; Mary Harney, supported by her colleagues in FF, has spent hundreds of thousands of taxpayers money 'talking' at dozens of conferences in the good ole US of A.

What results have we had? More talk... more reports .... more promises and grand plans all gathering dust. More REALITY, more increases (something like E25,000 per annum) to consultants, more bonuses to HSE administrators, big salaries and more expenses to politicians. More ordinary people dying on trolleys, longer waiting lists, more money into the pockets of the PRIVATE GP business that is local healthcare in Ireland.

We still have a USA type system which is neither efficient nor effective for the majority of people.

My reason for comparing Ireland with Cuba was to illustrate what can be done with the minimum of material wealth but with a government and medical profession dedicated to the welfare of the people before their own wealth.

Of course we can talk until we are purple in the face about what is wrong here, how we are personally suffering, or repeat the terrible stories of cancer patients, cystic fibrosis patients, children waiting for heart operations, people paying E3,000 a week for the care of elderly parents etc. Yes, we can denigrate 'third world countries' and their lack of equipment and access to drugs and make comparisons with our own well-equipped private hospitals, but WHO is benefitting from all this top of the range equipment?

80% of the wealth created by the Celtic Tiger was in the hands of 20% of the population. The wealth remaining is still in the hands of a tiny percentage of the population while Brian Lenihan tells us 'there is no golden circle' anymore!

Not only that, but that 20% were given special tax breaks, created by McCreevy, continued by Aherne and Cowen; tax breaks which exempted them from paying ANY ordinary income tax. That does not happen in any other country in Europe OR even in the USA. But never mind, that 20% (which includes some politicians) wouldn't know what an A&E department looked like on a Saturday night and they care far less.

That is the political system that the majority here have consistently voted for. Galway couldn't drink the water out of their taps for two years. What did they do? They voted the same crowd back in. Why? Because very little is known here about how other countries work.

If we know nothing about health systems in the rest of the world we will just vote for more of the same. Yes... the NHS in the UK does have problems, they also have 67 million people to look after while we have 4.5 million! I am personally very grateful to the NHS (it saved my life) within 2 hours of presenting at a local hospital. I worked there for 37 years, paid my taxes and National Health Insurance contributions and so was entitled to immediate, totally free care, medication and hospitalisation for over three weeks.

On that I agree sceptical, conferneces and talks and reports and commitees and sub-commitees, but what so they ever achieve? And of course, cancer patients, cystic fibrosis patients and children waiting for heart operations is a shameful indictment of our system and more disasterous still if it were to model the U.S. system.

I agree 100% with Errick the Driver, but there's one person everyone is failing to mention as if he had nothing to do with the appaling health service in this country and that is Michael Martin, the failed ex health minister.

That was when the rot set in, his energies were directed at covering up the nursing home scandal, he spent 20million on reports, did nothing to improve our health service or lift the suffering at a time when Ireland was awash with money, only to implement a draconian smoking ban by using junk science statistics supplied by big pharma, that ended up in the closure of over a thousand pubs and put thousands out of work, and that left thousands of people socially excluded and broke up a social culture.

Of course he had the backing of the EU for this and unfortunately the people he was elected to represent had little or no say.

His only ability as far as I'm concerned, is the value to his party in his terrior like debating manner.

Of course there are many issues which revolve around the dire performance of Mary Harney. Anne is correct to highlight the single contribution made by Micheal Martin.

But consider this. I recently looked at the news website of the hospital both my wife and myself trained in all those years ago - to see the announcement that 132 Irish trained nurses would shortly be commencing work at Whipps Cross hospital in east London. The e-news item read "Patients at Whipps Cross will soon be recieving treatment from 132 nurses trained in the Emerald Isle thanks to an overseas recruitment drive........... The Trust turned to countries such as Ireland as it currently had an excess of staff unable to find work." 30 of these newly qualified nurses will be from the training school at NUI Galway.

So, after 4 years spent working hard to earn their degrees, our nurses will take their experience to work in other countries. Meanwhile HSE hospitals here are still employing agency staff from abroad which is much more expensive surely?

I wonder at what cost to the HSE is this happening?

I do appreciate that this is not new. After all my own wife had to leave - 35 years ago to go get her training in the UK. But the scale of losses of our best and brightest now is immense, and is gathering pace.

If General Practice was the uninterested private business that some of your contributors suggest, it would not be looking after the poorest and most disadvantaged in society 24 /7. General Practice in Ireland looks after 95% of all reported illnesses, refering only 5% on to hospitals. It is the only branch of the health service that does not, and is not allowed to, differentiate between private and public patients. It is also the only branch of the health sevice that measures its waiting times in hours rather than months.

Destroy it at your peril!

That is interesting Admiral. I have not come across any GP's surgery in Ireland which is open 24 X 7. Oh yes, there is WestDoc / CareDoc - which get back to you and triage you but they inevitably send you to casualty anyway. Interesting too that you would say it's the only branch of the health service that does not, and is not allowed to, differentiate between private and public patients - givenm that I have come across doctors refusing to take appointments for certain patients but when told they no longer have a medical card it is a different story - also with unwillingness to attend base don the same premise and GPs havign certain days and times only which facilitate medical card patients. Aand yes, you can be aitign several days for a GP appointment. I would nit want to see it destroyed but certainly reformed.

I think you've missed the point Admiral. This alarmist threat - "at your peril" - is on a par with the Establishment, warning the lowest paid that the highest paid will depart (brain-drain) if they are asked to pay tax relative to income. Will GPs also up and leave if the health system is reformed to the benefit of the people?

I'm afraid those days are over - over right across the board! Nobody in Europe, Australia, UK or America pays the inflated salaries hyped by a succession of incompetent, self-interested and economically illiterate FF governments.

For example, NO 'top' civil servant, government minister, or COE of semi-state bodies, in the whole western hemisphere earns a salary comparable with those pocketed by the Irish. None of those countries want Irish 'high flyers'. These were supposed to be an educated elite. They have proved themselves selfish, money-mad, complacent fools. 

Apart, of course, from the bankers and Galway tent cronies; they are proving themselves as omnipotent and cunning - and powerful over government - as they ever were. The taxpayer is bailing out the most corrupt government and bank elite in Europe.

Why is it that when there is a 'Brain Drain' in this country none of our politicians emigrate?

"Sceptical" misses my point. GPs are not threatening to leave the country when their fees are cut in the budget. What we are worrying about is that the patient centred focus that we presently have may be subsumed into a civil service type mentality with the focus on saving money and ticking boxes as in the UK system.

If "Anonymous" wants a 24 hour a day GP, he or she, (but I suspect he) should think upon the fact that over 30% of Irish GPs are now female and they need family time. If he accepts this, then is is he saying that male GPs should not also enjoy time off with their families? What he says about out of hours services simply referring onto Casualty departments simple isn't true as a cursory examination of their annual reports will testify. If he wants to send female (or male) GPs into the night with a bag full of drugs on a saturday night and no one with them he is harking back to a golden age that no longer exists. He also forgets that the locums employed by some doctors for the night shifts are paid for by those doctors. Anyone is entitles to their predudices no matter how wide of the mark but the only patient I know who had a 24 hour Dr on tap was Michael Jackson and it didn't do him a whole lot of good. GP still has the highest satisfaction rating of any part of the health service and a better one than any other profession.

brandy, it's 3% of people on THIS discussion only!  Mary Harney's admirers are not likely to be on this thread as the discussion is so manifestly unbalanced. 

In obsessing about Harney's "poor" performance no-one addresses the real poor performance, namely the question of the lifestyle and societal aspects of our own collective ill-health as a nation.  If this was addressed the vast money that goes into the Health service would bear fruit and there would be a much higher approval rating than 3%.  Jedward gets a high performance rating on x-factor but what does that prove?

Just to set the record straight, I would earn an equivalent salary in the public dental service in the UK as I earn here. I would, however, receive a subsidy to attend clinical updates which is compulsory in the UK and will be so here next year, I have to pay for my own here. In the UK free education is exactly that, and healthcare costs are reasonable, an important factor when one has a family to support, so financially speaking many of my colleagues would be better off in the UK than working here on so-called high wages. The situation is similar in much of europe. The so called Brain Drain will become a reality again, just as it was in previous decades.