How many of the NO voters above would accept a 34% reduction in their wages? Mary Harney says she will 'save' €133 million in a full year and the Irish Pharmacy Union say that the deductions amount to €170 million. Take a figure in the middle say €150 million. There are approximately 1500 pharmacies in the country. That means on average each pharmacy will lose €100,000. Maybe the big foreign owned high street chains can afford these deductions but the ordinary pharmacy in the suburbs, in towns and villages all over the country cannot. Why were pharmacists treated differently to other health care professionals who had their wages reduced by 8%? Mary Harney must know that no group of workers would tolerate a 34% reduction in wages.

Mary Harney seems intent on wrecking yet another arm of the healthcare system. I suspect many of those who disagree may change their mind when the find their local pharmacy has closed and they face long journeys to get their prescriptions particularly in Donegal, Mayo or Kerry. She should try sitting down and talking with the pharmacy union.

Thomond, a Pharmacy does not hold a contract of employment with the DoHC/HSE so stop using misleading terms here such as cut in wages. This is a contract for service no different to any supplier. If you don't like the new contract then don't take it. The taxpayer is entitled to better value than it currently gets and the rates paid in Ireland are the highest in Europe and much higher than across the border. The other professionals such as solicitors, accountants, engineers, architects may only have taken an 8% cut in rate but their level of activity in last two years has crumbled whereas pharmacy activity has increased. The shopkeeper only gets a mark-up on goods sold - you get both markup and dispensing fee. Im not aware of a pharmacy going out of business yet and can't see it being a common occurrence which is more than can be said for corner shops, clothes shops, auctioneers and other small businesses in last year.

Auditor, you are correct in saying that if pharmacists do not like the contract they do not have to take it. As far as I can see in the press 1100 have decided they do not like it and are not taking it. That will leave roughly 400 pharmacies for the entire country.

I agree with Auditor. The pharmacies have been cleaning up for years and charging ridiculous prices for simple things like soap, shampoos, toothpastes ect. They don't give value for money at all! There has to be a place called stop and I would love to see some of these pharmacies brought down a peg or two.

Well said auditor I agree with you .I personally have taken a 80% pay cut and I have to get on with it.I can not threaten the most needy in this country In America there are mail order prescription services and it costs a lot less to get your prescription. I think its time for this to happen in ireland and then we will see the greedy pharmacists drop there prices.They have been ripping us off for years how much profit do they want.

What else is Mary Harney going to do before somebody has the guts to get rid of her??? They can bail out the banks but when it comes to health services they will alllow pharmacy's to pull out of the scheme which ordinary people on low incomes depend on to get their medicines. What about the elderly and terminally ill? kids who are on medication who depend on this service. What do they have to do ?? Hope they can get their med's somewhere else.or suffer in silence and pain?. Enough is enough...This country is getting beyond a joke and is playing with peoples lives..

Auditor. You are wrong. On GMS prescriptions (80% of all prescriptions) the pharmacy gets NO mark-up. The pharmacy gets the COST price of the medicines plus a dispensing fee of €3.60. Under the new Harney diktat the pharmacy will get the cost price less 6.5% and all dispensing fees are reduced and some abolished completely. As the income from the GMS contract is approximately 75% of the ordinary pharmacy income the reduction of 34% is similar to getting a cut in wages. As far as better value is concerned, it is the Dept of Health which sets the price of medicines because it has an agreement with IPHA (Irish Pharmaceutical and Healthcare Association) so the only additional charge on the price of drugs to the taxpayer is the pharmacists dispensing fee. This fee has been tied into the national wage agreement since 1996 and has only been increased annually by the percentage in that agreement. Throwaway remarks such as 'the highest in Europe' are either deliberately misleading or the product of the DoHC/HSE expensive spindoctors.

"I`m not aware of a pharmacy going out of business yet" - are you for real auditor. In Dublin 2 alone there has been Westmoreland Street, Aston Quay, St Stephens Green Centre, Nassau Street, Lincoln Place, Grafton Street....

If your opinions are listened to then why should the state pay social welfare to anyone that has lost their job, provide social housing, provide medical cards, pay 30% extra to public servants because they live in Ireland etc.......

The markup on drugs over here is disgraceful. The very same drugs can be bought OTC in Spain etc for a fraction of the cost. I realise it is not the pharmacists choice to implement such markups but something does need to be done. A pharmacist with 18 months experience earns up to eight thousand a year. Why? They are not allowed to diagnos - all they do is dispense. Even doctors would not be on that salary so soon post qualification.

Buzz, as far as I`m aware 70% of prescriptions are dispensed with NO mark up.

I voted unsure....because I'm not sure who (govt/pharm) gets the 'mark-up down here!  EG: I can buy larger medical patches in the 'North' (14p) than down here (60c-for smaller) !   

Who is benefitting....??  Is the govt charging too much re tax etc...or are the pharmacies 'creaming' it ??  I know cancer medicines are scarily dearer here than elsewhere...have been for years....so let's know once and for all....is it the govt...is it the pharm's....or is it a deal between the govt and the drug companies ??

I think it's time to examine what was inside pandora's box !! 

It's very simple really. Pharmacist in this country operate a "closed union" policy, they use the countries laws as a form of protectionism. There is no "freedom of entry" into the market, they have the power to hold the country to ransom andmany of the members have qualified abroad and wrangled their way into the union.It's another "Gravey train "thats got to be derailed ! let the best horse jump the fence and if that happens to be "Boot's" so be it ! Customer is KING now guys !

I am not talking about mark ups that are made necessarily by the pharmacists I am talking about the fact that a drug over here which I priced at €450 per month cost €3.50 per week to buy abroad. Why is that? How can such differences be justified? Can anyone hazrad an educated guess????

and excuse the obvious typo that should be a salary of EIGHTY thousand a year after little over a year's experience.

I am one also voting YES I agree with Thomond's comments. On his/her advise I went into site www.ipu.ie and found a lot of information there. Apart from Pharmacies making more profits on the likes of soaps, shampoos toothpaste. Well they are just the same as an ordinary small shop making more than bigger stores. We are talking about drugs schemes here.

Mary Hearney is the one to blame not the Pharmacies. Now take my Husband's situation he's out sick since last January all he gets for benefit for fully paid up RSI contributions is €204.30 each week. I have an invalidity book of €209.80. One Daughter living at home she due nought because she is in 3rd level education. If we look at the unemployed-those on long term benefit way before recession they get same amount of €204.30 - I am not against this, nor against those who lost jobs to recession/but remember Bertie Ahearne did all this in all the Celtic Tiger Years.

Way back in the late ninties when I was sick, still am. At that time I am 99.9% positive that I paid just for myself needing different medications a Drugs Scheme Card (can't remember name of it) amounting to around £45 went up on average over each budget to £60 per each month until the Drugs Payment Scheme came into effect. As we all know that has gone up over a few budgets to $100 per month. We're now on Medical Card.

I'm glad our people are trying to negotiate to stave off more unemployment. We are the worse European Country hit by the recession due to all the banks, all the enquiries corruption going on for years and years, excess bonuses, overpaid ministerial pensions. There's lots we could post.

I'm glad people are not sitting back and taking all this lightly, they are not like it was in the eighties recession, we are more educated, geared up to see the non sensicle situation our Country brought us all down too.

If yous go into Site on www.hse.ie about Pharmacies withdrawing, Mary Hearney states "They have a contingency plan put in place if they Pharmacies go ahead on 1st August". She has the gaul to ask us "If people are concerned ask your Pharmacist if they intend to continue supply after August 1st 2009"

Pharmacists once known as "Apothocaries" can only dispense prescibed drugs, and what is her secret plan to put a contingency into action? This is the question we should be seeing talks about in our government buildings.

Chrissie 

AndyDrew -  Anyone can open a pharmacy in Ireland.

Boots have 30 chemists in Ireland.

It is amazing the unsubstantiated comments made by some people about a subject of which they knno nothing. For instance Buzz talks about a drug (?) costing €450 a month in Ireland - the maximum anybody pays in Ireland for prescribed drug is €100 per month. The price of medicines in this country is set by the Dept of Health in a deal with the multinational drug companies. The Irish Pharmacy Union has been calling for some time now for the greater use of generic medicines. It calculates that in doing so it would save the state €83 million per year. I don't know of any young pharmacist getting €80K per year. Anddrew for some reason thinks that there is no 'freedom of entry'. Any qualified pharmacist can open a pharmacy wherever he or she likes subject to standards laid down by the HSE and the Pharmacy Regulator. As for the price of prescription medicines in Ireland, the big brand named ones are fixed at price which can only vary by 5% from a basket of the same medicine from nine other EU countries (including Spain). It is this deal that Mary Harney claims stops her from allowing the cheaper off patent generic drugs.

I've read all the above comments, both sides are right and both sides are wrong. The faults in this country are caused by the government and slagged by the opposition. True opposition would force a general election by now bearing in mind they have had nearly two decades to do so. Remember who negotiated the last excessive increase for GPs payments for the over seventies pensioners, that's right-James Reilly of Fine Gael, no doubt doing his job as a union rep.  The system of politics MUST be changed from vested interests and politicians managing the country to their advantage at the expense of the average down to the poor. Apart from the banks and developers who basically gamble with our savings to try and get rich quick the only other people I can think of that abuse others is crimnals and politicians. Once you are above average income you will barely be asked to take the pain, 5% or 8% on 150,000euro or above is pathetic when the average or the poor take 100% through job loss or social walfare cuts or in some cases refusal. Would doctors or other professionals wait 12 weeks to be assessed before getting paid what they are due as agreed in a national agreement. Would judges not have to pay income taxes instead of levies, if this government meant business this is one certain mistake they made, income tax not any other type of revenue collection measures unless they rush through guillotine legislation to make it effective. The difference between the rich and poor in Ireland is the rich get to offer to pay taxes the poor get imposition of taxes.

It's now coming so close to August 1st - I just rang our Chemist and was reassured that they will cotinue Drugs scheme after the 1st August. This Chemist is part of Unicare Pharmacy. I looked them up on the net and found www.unicarepharmacy.ie it states they have over 70 Chemists throughout the Country.

I also found on their Site IMPORTANT Customer Notice dated 09 July 2009 words saying "They are not withdrawing Drugs Schemes come 1st August - business as usual (don't quote it word for word here) To those who are with Unicare Pharmacies can check same.

Over the last number of weeks Mary Harney has frightened many especially those who are so ill - so Unicare are not so uncaring to those who need their meds.

Thomand's last post is correct. My opinion - No matter what the cost of medications are to all pharmacies - all the persons living in Republic even Brian Cowen can avail of this if he so wishes to do so. He is entitled to Drugs Payment Scheme and only has to pay €100 per month for him, his wife, and children if the payment he pays goes over €100.

Isn't our Republic of Ireland just great to the Rich. He even earns more than Barack Obama!!

Chrissie

Hammer/Thomond, on the face of it the pharmacy gets no mark-up on GMS prescriptions i.e. the invoiced cost but you omit to mention the rebates the drug companies give back to the pharmacies of approx 8% which is effectively a mark-up. This is what Harney has been chasing as she feels a dispensing fee is fair pay for the service. The mark-up of course does apply to LTI, DPS and harships scheme which is a significant earner for Pharmacists. Hammer you mention the fact that any pharmacist can open a pharmacy as if this has always been the case. In fact this market has only recently been opened up against massive opposition similar to the taxi industry. The only pharmacy I'm aware of closing was a second pharmacy in a town of population 6000 inn my are which an existing pharmacist opened to 'block' anybody else opening another one. When he failed to block competition he closed one of them. Other pharmacies which closed were because they were bought-out by a chain and then re-opened. Many pharmacists have made fortunes by opening and selling in this manner several times. I accept that with many young pharmacists now being allowed for the first time to open a new pharmacy without having to buy an existing business the market will become extremely competitive. Its called competition and what all other businesses face so why should pharmacies be different. The customer will be the winner. It is not the case that 1100 pharmacies have pulled out - many have given ambiguous replies and will have to confirm specifically if they are pulling out before the correct figure can be verified.

I said it was PRICED at €450. The same drug is also PRICED at $600 in the States. Obviously I am not going to disclose the name of the drug for confidential and personal reasons, suffice to say that somewhere along the line we ARE being ripped off. People are not stupid.

"It is not the case that 1100 pharmacies have pulled out - many have given ambiguous replies and will have to confirm specifically if they are pulling out before the correct figure can be verified."

Auditor you must work with/for the HSE. This, I believe is exacty the story "SPUN" by the HSE.

Buzz no doubt we are being ripped off but by who? Whether it be the HSE plus the Department of Health/all registered pharmacies/or even our GPs. Would be most interested to know how you acquired this info cost €450 per month? (but I also am bearing in mind your confidentiality) You also told us this same drug can be bought abroad for €3.50 per week this = €14 per month. Could it be possible that the cheaper price of $14 be the same except it's a generic drug?

Yes we're ripped off because even though these Drug Schemes here are subsidised by our government someone the likes of our government or indeed Doctors are tailored to prescribe the most expensive drugs, when there may be a cheaper brand from another Company. I believe they do this to gain money for research, to travel for conferences about the latest innovative drugs going, and get them on board to sell their drugs. The fault lies with Mary Hearney-she is the Leader of Health Care in our Country.

If readers do go into www.ipu.ie Irish Pharmaceutical Union yous will see for yourselves that they have asked Mary Hearney to allow for generic drugs to be prescribed by our Doctors here. I also found that to be a pharmacist they have to register with this Union, it's just like other jobs where unions are, the employees pay thier subscription fee to them.

I lean towards blaming our Government, how many Pharmaceutical Companies are here, how many jobs would be lost if she allowed cheaper generic drugs. Her advisers are balancing the Books about the wider issue of what is to be gained or lost. She therefore tries to blame all our pharmacies.

Chrissie  

Hi Chrissie yes I researched the drug and it is in fact a generic. It has the same active compound but different concentration thereof (but certainly not different enough to warrant such a huge price difference). I have a masters in chem so working out correct dosage etc was not a problem (childs play for anyone really)(and also had some very helpful off the record assistance with a trusted medical professional for advice) but yes the only differences were 1)the concentration and 2)the name - amazing! 

Some very interesting (and logical!) points in 28! Think the difference between Tesco Value Sugar and Siucra sugar..... sugar is sugar!!! But the labels..... well they are worth a fortune now aren't they!!! :)

Brandy's comment to chrissie about equality and who benifits and how many of us are greedy is well made and speaks for many many honest ordinary workers and non workers, but the government AND opposition seem/continue to ignore the call for the rich and very rich to play a meaningful part in saving our country's economy. If someone on 204 euro a week is expected to take a 5% cut = 10.20 euro then in my book it is reasonable for multimillionaires to take the real money equivilant e.g. 200,000 should = 10,000 euro extra tax, this level should be progressively increased by percentage as the figure goes up as they will still have much more disposable income to feed their families and life styles than the average worker or non worker,then we could take them seriously. A brave Government would insist in including every well cushioned public and private sector top and middle management and every one earning over 80,00 euro into a 50% tax rate for 5 years. The average industrial wage and below should be frozen, double the average wage should pay tax at 40% for 5 years. If the economy has recovered by then let us all gain a little bit of the profits not like the tiger years where the chosen few were given full rein.

Buzz & Brandy

Thanks for your replies - Brandy those who will and always have been benefiting the most by any action by our present government and all their predecessors looked after themselves, and all their cronies. As far as I can see they ditched out only bits and pieces to keep us all at bay.

I don't wish to intermix different articles here - but I downloaded Call for end to GP contracts 16/7/2009 posted by our Editor Buzz and all us here let's keep our fingers crossed that this may go through to keep more money in the public domain so that the young children of today and those who need meds depending on what they decide (all the Medical doctors) they do let generic grugs go ahead. It reports in this from Bord Snip, I'll just point out one paragraph in it.

"The report calls for mandatory proposals to be introduced for hospitals and doctors to provide generic drugs"

We'll all soon know what this Bord Snip Report done by Colm McCarthy what it really contains when most everyone registered on this Site will be downloading it from the Net today.

I believe they should extradite all those back here who corrupted our Country in the Banks, but guess what as we know all - the Law is even more powerful than our B****y government.

People here way down the line, low paid workers will not take this Snip Report lightly if parts of it does come to happen. They take us be be eejets and eejets we are not.

Chrissie 

No Brandy you forget why and how politicians have this power - its because someone voted them there i.e. one person one vote. Therein lies the problem - a sizeable majority of the electorate were happy to keep Bertie in power for so long and now Cowen is holding the chalice. No point in giving out about politicians when we get the politicians we deserve.

Auditor

Where you say on your post #35 especially "No point in giving out about politicians when we get the politicians we deserve".

Can you or someone else draw up a Dynamic System to change rules of voting and regulations, because if we cannot then why do we use irishhealth.com to bring across our views.

I am well aware of persons who don't vote, doing spoiled votes, and by doing this they keep politicians in if he/she get enough votes. Then I ask you why carry on and bring more children into This God Forsaken Hell of Island of Ireland. I would be out of here like a shot if I could afford it - pity we didn't do it 2 to 3 years ago when we would have got lots of money from the sale of our home and let into the United States because my Brother and Sister gave up their Irish passport and became Americian Citizens - they could have claimed us in.

All I know is, you draw a very bleak picture for generations to come living here.

Chrissie

Auditor

Where you say on your post #35 especially "No point in giving out about politicians when we get the politicians we deserve".

I somehow remember that you have used this statement on other articles on this Site - if it wasn't you then I apologize. We have 134,188 registered members right now with irishealth.com. I wonder would they all believe what you say.

Can you or someone else draw up a Dynamic System to change rules of voting and regulations, because if we cannot then why do we use irishhealth.com to bring across our views.

I am well aware of persons who don't vote, doing spoiled votes, and by doing this they keep politicians in if he/she get enough votes. Then I ask you why carry on and bring more children into This God Forsaken Hell of Island of Ireland. I would be out of here like a shot if I could afford it - pity we didn't do it 2 to 3 years ago when we would have got lots of money from the sale of our home and let into the United States because my Brother and Sister gave up their Irish passport and became Americian Citizens - they could have claimed us in.

All I know is, you draw a very bleak picture for generations to come living here.

Chrissie

Auditor

Where you say on your post #35 especially "No point in giving out about politicians when we get the politicians we deserve".

I somehow remember that you have used this statement on other articles on this Site - if it wasn't you then I apologize. We have 134,188 registered members right now with irishealth.com. I wonder would they all believe what you say.

Can you or someone else draw up a Dynamic System to change rules of voting and regulations, because if we cannot then why do we use irishhealth.com to bring across our views.

I am well aware of persons who don't vote, doing spoiled votes, and by doing this they keep politicians in if he/she get enough votes. Then I ask you why carry on and bring more children into This God Forsaken Hell of Island of Ireland. I would be out of here like a shot if I could afford it - pity we didn't do it 2 to 3 years ago when we would have got lots of money from the sale of our home and let into the United States because my Brother and Sister gave up their Irish passport and became Americian Citizens - they could have claimed us in.

All I know is, you draw a very bleak picture for generations to come living here.

Chrissie

Auditor

Where you say on your post #35 especially "No point in giving out about politicians when we get the politicians we deserve".

I somehow remember that you have used this statement on other articles on this Site - if it wasn't you then I apologize. We have 134,188 registered members right now with irishealth.com. I wonder would they all believe what you say.

Can you or someone else draw up a Dynamic System to change rules of voting and regulations, because if we cannot then why do we use irishhealth.com to bring across our views.

I am well aware of persons who don't vote, doing spoiled votes, and by doing this they keep politicians in if he/she get enough votes. Then I ask you why carry on and bring more children into This God Forsaken Hell of Island of Ireland. I would be out of here like a shot if I could afford it - pity we didn't do it 2 to 3 years ago when we would have got lots of money from the sale of our home and let into the United States because my Brother and Sister gave up their Irish passport and became Americian Citizens - they could have claimed us in.

All I know is, you draw a very bleak picture for generations to come living here.

Chrissie

Auditor. You make a number of points all of which are incorrect. Pharmacies do not all get the same discount. Small pharmacies may not get any discount while large pharmacies obviously get good discounts. I do not know what discounts any pharmacy gets and I don't believe Mary Harney does either. For a small pharmacy it is possible that it will be supplying medicines below cost. That is why most of the opposition to the cuts is coming from small pharmacies which are faced with extinction.

The other point you make is, that it was only recently that 'the market was opened up'. There was never a time in Ireland when a pharmacist could not open his/her own pharmacy provided it was of proper standard. You also claim that there is more competition because there are more pharmacies, presumably you think this is a 'good thing'. If the price of prescription medicines is set by the Dept of Health there cannot be competition. Unfortunately many people commenting on pharmacy haven't the foggiest idea about the profession or even what the job entails.

Auditor, you should come clean and admit what your place of work is, you seem to know an awful lot about the pharmacy crisis but are not a pharmacist but work with a pharmacist. The HSE employs many pharmacists in various roles but community pharmacists don't employ many people that are so au fait with the workings of the system, like you have. Transparency is the name of the game.

I am a pharmacist.

Background to this debacle is that for the last 4 years, the IPU has made umpteen presentations to the HSE/DoHC/Minister for Health that the present remuneration system should be looked at and revised - FACT

This was to to help the state to save money, in light of the numerous generic companies that had started to supply medicines to pharmacies - FACT

76% of all prescriptions dispensed within the state are dispensed at cost price + €3.60. The remaining prescriptions are dispensed at up to 50% mark-up (in some parts of the country, local arrangements are in place to pay less than 50% on some products) - FACT

Pharmacises on average have a 32% Gross Margin and 6.6% Net Margin (Tesco has 9.5% Net margin) - FACT

Anybody can open a pharmacy, so andydrew, get your skates on if the business is that lucrative - FACT

Mail Order Prescriptions are a fantastic idea, but when the perverbial hits the fan, who you going to sue? How do you know what you are getting? There is a good market in counterfeit drugs around the world, are you going to trust faceless bodies to post you your prescription. How are you going to manage for emergency medicines?

Tomboy, it is irrelevant what pharmacies charge for shampoos, perfumes, if you feel riped-off at their prices go to Tesco. Bare in mind that those other product lines help pay for the Medical card prescriptions, without those sundry products, the supply of medicines would be completely different. Some of those money making pharmacies sell alot of these other products too - FACT

Auditor, not everybody gets 8% discount, some people don't get any. The basis of that "discount" was for efficiensies to be made (not something the HSE are familiar with!?!). It comprised of pharmacies using electronic ordering, reduced deliveries per day, paying for product within specified time frames etc etc etc

I support the pharmacists action , how can Mary Harney expect any business to work effectively after conceding 34 per of a cut to their income . She has targetted every other health service by 8 per cent so where is the equality in that , none of us think twice about asking our local pharmacist for advice but go to the GP and hand out 50 euro for the same service and we cringe at the thought of it! It's all fine none until the pharmacists are too busy to give time to their customers because they have had to reduce staffing levels because of Mary Harney's cuts.

I for one have had to rely on my local pharmacist contacting either a hospital or GP with regard to a prescription error and i'm thankful of their service and it will detremental to all of our healths if this service has to be affected or restricted in any way!

The problem is auditor, they promise the proverbial sun, moon and stars pre election and then fail to deliver. Plus we are constantly picking the "best of a bad lot" so we have to also question how much better a job could someone else have done? (I am not defending them by the way but most politicians are out for themsleves and their crooked friends)

I agree with Buzz, Brady and Andy on this. and not only are perscriptions cheaper in Spain, Greece and the uk (and I know several colleagues who order them there and have them shipped over) but 80 miles up the road from our capital city - so it's not surprising to see so many people going to pharmacIes 'over the border'. For your information thomad, these include- the contraceptive pill - 30% cheaper in Spain, including postage. Difene, not only cheaper but available without persciption. Warfarin, 23% cheaper from a pharmacy in the North. Perscription anti-inflamatory - just over one third of the price in Greece.

Auditor

Regards your post #46

The sentence in above my myself, I brought it to your attention to what you wrote as in "We get the politicians we deserve etc" I wrote to point out it's because we have no control over all those that live here who don't vote, do spoiled votes and I believe this is an acceptable reasoning on why, in most cases because of the lack of fresh politicians to come forward, or indeed those who tried to get elected in previous local and european elections did or did not get in. (some did get in and I believe it down heartened FF)

Well I checked out what retail profits pharmacists make in Ireland. Found on Independent.ie HSE blows millions on over priced medicine dated 13th July 2009 for those who wish to look at this. It states:- Generic Drugs dispensed here are 18 times higher than some generic drugs than in the U.K. it outllined prices as in euro to euro, type of medication here and the U.K.

It be my opinion that the HSE and Dept of Health are at fault here because it more or less states on other trusted Sites more expensive drugs may not be available from our pharmaceutical companies, and it being that we are such a small Country to other european counterparts that do dispense generic drugs where available, therefore it be less expensive than our Health System here.

Another point I'd like to make 800 Pharmaciess have pulled out from the contract with the HSE and iin turn the HSE has accepted their withdrawal. If readers wish to go into www.hse.ie they will see this and Mary Hearney's Phase 1 of her contingency plan proposals.

The Irish Pharmaceutical Union have meeting today we'll soon see how many more will or will not pull out of their contract with the HSE.

Chrissie  

Yes Chrissie I understand your point. Its unfortunate that Irish politics often attracts people who like power, status and money rather than a public service intention. I think many Irish people like cute hoorism and set their standards for their politicians somewhere at ground level. They accept the strokes once they get the benefit as well themselves at some stage but yet don't realise, that the mass voter who is really not that well off, is being poorly looked after by the state. Most of what people get through the local politician they are entitled to anyway and would get if they went through the proper channels anyway.

I don't think the HSE 'accepted' the pharmacists' withdrawal - more accurate to say they acknowledge the right to withdraw once proper notice was given.

Brandy

Agree with all you say particularly "poorer lives are expendable and the richer lives are saved". Your're not going of course with all you said here. All the global drug companies are wealthy, especially Ireland and I believe this is why Mary Hearney will not even make an acceptable agreement with all our pharmacies in Ireland. She would rather see from 5,000 to 7,000 sacked who work in Pharmacies across our Country. So far to date on the www.hse.ie site there were 800 pharmacies who pulled out - now it's down to 776 Pharmacies who are not pulling out, as in they retracted their withdrawal and will continue to give out all drug schemes after 31st August.

If we were to look at the www.ipu.ie Site they say they have just over 1100 pharmacies registered with them. Now do we take it to believe that it's compulsory to join their Union? or if not have, the amount of 800 who pulled out are still out, then we add on 776 pharmacies who are staying with agreed contract with the HSE. So it be either we have 1842 pharmacies in Ireland, or 1100 as said by Irish Pharmaceutical Union. If they be right (IPU) then just only 24 pharmacies re-instated their contract with the HSE yesterday. Your're right Brandy "There is indeed a Secrets Act" many of which we cannot infiltrate. the HSE cannot even give correct information on their Site about all pharmacies we have here.

Auditor

Thanks for reply but if you go into this HSE Site you'll see by clicking on News & Media and scholl down to end of page that the HSE states:- They have written to all pharmacies (800) accepting their withdrawals. The HSE has this info buried deep down within their Site.

Chrissie

Re:- my post # 50

I made a typing error - it should have read 1852.

On this HSE Site where they are giving updates of Pharmacies staying within the HSE contract from day to day, it should show proper updates (as of now it's still 776 pharmacies staying with their contract Last Updated 24/7/2009)

The HSE is purportedly one of the highest offices in Ireland. I used to work in A/Cs. For to do these amounts fo pharmacies the right way:-

It should state whether minus (24) came from the 800 reported pharmacies who pulled out and it does not.

It should state how many pharmacies were registered with them, whether it be more than just over 1100 as reported by IPU. The HSE are not giving us a true picture and total figure of all those who are registered with them until the end of this month.

They are truly confusing all the people including myself. I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill - they the HSE are the ones that are doing this.

Chrissie   

Apologies skipping back a few contributors. It amazes me how Irish people are willing to stab each other to drive costs down. Eventually Irish wages across all sectors will be miserable and yet mortgage costs will be rising. Unemployment will reach 650,000 - minumum wage will be reduced to €8 and social welfare will be cut €10 per week plus.

Comparing drug costs between Ireland and say Spain / Greece is pointless.

What if we paid all workers in Ireland the same rate as they would get in Spain / Greece. Yes, you`ve guessed it our wages will be cut 45%!!!...............is that what we want, because that is where we are going. The Unions are mouthpieces, the Govt are useless and the public who should be backing each other are SHEEP. YES SHEEP.

Too much medicine is making us sicker and poorer. We, the patients are to blame! We must lead a healthier lifestyle and we will need less medicine. All this frenzied cycle of GP, consultant, pharmacist with its ensuing demand for ever more drugs is causing a culture of dependence that is counter-productive. We blame everyone else but ourselves.

Yes I do.  I believe this so called Government are a bunch of no hopers.  Since they've been in power this country has gradually over the past few years gone down hill.  They believe - especially Ms Harney (who herself is obviously a great advertisement for good health - obesitiy or what!) that they are omnipotent and can do whatever they want.  They rush through bills to change laws overnight; they are overpaid, as all government and public officials are - if they cut all of their wages by 10 - 15%, I'm darn sure we would pull out of this recession and not have let the poorer in our society suffer because of their obstinancy.  What's going to happen if all our the GP's in the country are not happy with the cuts they are going to have to take on board; will they strike?  What a state the country would be in then.  Mary Harney get your thinking cap on or do the honourable thing and QUIT and take the wonder Professor Drum with you.

Witofine, a healthier lifestyle will not completely remove the need for medication. In fact we are living longer now thnaks inpart to modern medicine.

Hammer, you don't mean to tell me that the in the Noerth salaries for pharmacisgts are 45% less than they are here? Ah come on now?

As you are well aware prices in the North are not 45% cheaper.

The media compares price for medicines in Ireland for those in Spain. Spain will become the Irish economic model.

The public service will be expected to cut their salaries to Spanish levels. Garda Siochana will be earning €20,000 per annum and providing the same sh** service as the Spanish police.

Auditor

Re your post # 55:- The PCRS - formerly GMS confirmed the number of pharmacies who have withdrawn Not the HSE. Also approximately 1550 pharmacies in the Irish Republic - don't dispute there are 1550, but the HSE never put total figure of Pharmacists on their Site - only the amount that opted out.

I never heard of PCRS until you said it here. I remember GMS Geneal Medical Services as was run by our Health boards before the HSE took over.

I now say it again, the HSE did formally accept withdrawals of pharmacies and put it on their webside. It's named:-

Termination of State Drug Scheme Contracts By Pharmacists

Tuesday, 20th July 2009

The HSE today formally acknowledged the termination of contracts by 800 pharmacists who have given the Executive written notice that they will be withdrawing from the State Drug Schemes. Letters issued by the HSE to these pharmacists today acknowledges receipt of communication from Pharmacists that constitutes termination of the Community Pharmacy Contractor. Agreement with the HSE when the 30 days notice period expires on 1st August 2009.

Then it goes on to list patients get their details prescriptions etc and gives list of 12 Hospitals to be used after the 31st August if their pharmacy has withdrawn.

-End-

Kirsten Connolly

Head of Press & Media, HSE

Ph - 01 635 2840

Mob - 087 39 39 991

Parkgate St Buniness Centre, Dublin 8

Last Updated on: 21 / 07 / 2009 (I downloaded this info and rewrote most of it here)

So Auditor the HSE did have on their Site the number of pharmacies who have withdrawn. Then as I've already stated went down to 776 Pharmacies withdrawn. What I expressed was the fact that the HSE should have listed total number of Pharmacies in our Republic.

Chrissie

If the Pharmacists withdraw from their contract,I can't see them surviving on just income from private prescriptions especially in a recession.I see that most of the big chains are not going on strike.In the UK there are virtually no independent pharmacies as Boots etc gobbled them all up long ago

Don't think the HSE are going to back down.Even if there was a settlement,is there any guarantee that the HSE would accept the striking pharmacies back?High stakes indeed

rick

Re your post we are not like Great Britian, anyway Boots here who have chemists have agreed to accept the HSE Drugs Scheme Contract, it's posted on this Site sometime in July by our Editor Niall Hunter. I tried to find out exactly how many Boots Chemists are in our Republic - no success so far and anyway can we see it may happen that Boots from G..B. may replace and import all their Pharmacists to come here, I doubt it in view of our recession. Also we all found out yesterday that the List put up on the Website by our HSE are 30% to 60% wrong. The Pharmacists are saying there's names there that shouldn't be there.

Auditor

I give you proof positive now that in fact the HSE did put on their Site withdrawal of pharmacies. Our Editor let post go out named:- Ireland 10 days from medicine crisis - ipu [posted: Wed 22/07/2009 by Joanne McCarthy] The last paragraph in this article states:-

The HSE said to date 776 Pharmacies have given notice to quit the State Schemes.

I would also like to learn more from yourself to find these 1550 pharmacies on PCRS. When I went looking through this Site PCRS brought me straight to the HSE Site. So if you could give me exact website to find this would be much appreciated.

Your comments in some part agreeing to some with Witofire I disagree with both your postings. Whether one be a private patient or on a medical card Docs do not over prescribe.

People are not over prescribed to have their immune system weakened. If yous knew of what can happen to a Heart Transplant Patient, these people are prescribed drugs to bring up their immune system because they are very more prone to getting infections.

People who lose their Spleens are more prone to getting infections.

Witofire Consultants are needed in a lot of cases whether it be elective or emergency. Then after saving their life some persons are put on meds as a lifeline for the rest of their lives.

People who acquire epilepsy that cannot be controlled are put on epanuton. People with problems with blood supply to their heart are put on blood thinners Wafarin or heparin. I could go on and on.

In my case my Life was saved 5 times, and I take medication to prolong my life span. My Pharmacy Provider is dispensing meds after the 1st August so I don't say what I say here just for myself. There are millions out there depending on drugs dispensed, it's for those I speak of.

Something has got to be done before the end of August by our government to make settlement with pharmacies who pulled out, if not people will die.

By the way if yous go into your last Newsletter received from our Editor Niall Hunter you'll see for yourselves what's updated to 28th July 2009. Even looking to the right hand side of your monitor click on pharmacies, and it will bring you to more articles of pharmacies and you'll see it brings you further to other articles concerning this pharmacy dispute + related ones dealing with the HSE.

Chrissie

Chrissie,a few points:

1. Im not sure what our disagreement is regarding the numbers of pharmacies there are or who are withdrawn. The PCRS is the paymaster for the HSE effectively and is where the statistics are derived from. I assume everybody is in general agreement that there are approx 1550 pharmacies (google 1500 pharmacies and find article dated 2007 and there are least 50 more today)and in the region of 700 - 800 have given notice to withdraw. The list posted is not 60% wrong or anywhere near that - it may be 60 pharmacies wrong which would be 7% but I dont believe that. I suspect that some pharmacies are giving the IPU differing information so they can claim they didn't break ranks.

2. I never said people were overprescribed drugs to have their immune system weakened. I said that people were having drugs innapropriately prescribed which had the effect of immuno compromising them and I specifically mentioned antibiotics as the main but not sole problem area. This is a FACT and the main reason why superbugs exist. I would be surprised if any Pharmacist would not agree with me on this. It is a specific problem in Ireland as highlighted by a European survey in 2005 and accepted by the Irish Medical Oganisation.

-Chrissie, There is a notice on the wall of my GP’s waiting room that says, “Sometimes the best medicine is no medicine”. It should have been there thirty years ago and a copy in his surgery as well. GPs now realise that drugs are overprescribed. Don’t confuse the genuine prescription as in your own case with the general problem.

The Government are right to curtail the massive profits made by pharmacists at the expense of the taxpayer. If those massive profits were not being achieved we would not have multinational pharmacists clamouring to buy out independent pharmacies in Ireland.

Auditor

I don't have a disagreement about 1550 Pharmacies here.

(1) My point was to know where this figure came from because the IPU said they had just over 1100 Pharmacies here.

(2) Then I saw list on the HSE Site where 776 pulled out, but it did not say how many there were, and I wondered was amount 1550 as you said.

(3) Then yesterday we heard through our media that the list was wrong on the HSE Site stated by IPU. "I did not say 60% wrong" I said between 30% to 60% wrong.

(4) When I do write on this Site I always try to put up a website where one is available to prove my point.

(5) Auditor if you go to www.rte.news.ie and listen to yesterday's news you'll hear what was said by List being wrong between 30% to 60%.

(6) At this point in time I don't much care who stays in, or who stays out. All I know for sure is Unicare are staying with the HSE and I don't have to travel far to get my meds.

(7) I now know since this debate started here we are all left in the dark as to who is right the IPU-HSE-PCRS.

Your 2nd point:-

I know I didn't quote you word for word, but in my book I mentioned Immune System weakened - you said immuno comprimising them and you specificially mentioned antibiotics as the main but not sole problem area. So I deem I said more or less what you said, only I worded it differently.

I pointed out the seriousness of persons needing these meds and gave examples, I worried for others not myself. I won't go by whatever statistics the european survey put forward nor indeed the IMO.

To end this I'll just bring to readers attention that way back in 1992 despite going to my GP over 3 times and paying him fee, am not against one having a medical card. Well I complained with swelling and red marks on my face he prescribed some type of cream and said it was "scabies" this was eradicated here over 40-50 years ago. I went to A&E and ended up being admitted for Cellulitis Infection and was put on an intravenous drip with antibiotics. Was told had I not gone when I did it would have travelled up to my brain and killed me.

Whether I be believed or not I tell truth, and note how late I posted 4:49am because I was concerned for others not knowing whether their Pharmacy was still with the HSE's contract or left after seeing News.

Chrissie

end of disagreement your words

I have been reading the posts lately, and still find it incredible that so many people in the public services, never seem to answer a direct question e. g. how many pharmacists exist in Ireland? Then I am equally amazed by the public at large, who continue to discuss with each other possible remedies without accurate facts or figures.

We could all be politicians at that rate. For those interested the problem is not, making a profit at all levels of service, but a fair profit for each level. This applies across all sections of society after all thats how we all make a living wage. The only way to balance everything up so that services we need can be afforded is to ring-fence each section e.g. hospital,nursing care, etc so that no one can take funds for their service to the detriment of other services. I know of a person who had a heart attack recently was brought to emercengy by ambulance, all done to highest standards and saved the person's life. No expense spared, until he was kept in hospital in a public system.

Because he was on VHI all his life it was assumed he would be sent to the private system to relieve the pressure on the public system after the emergency period was over. But apparently if you are taken to emergency departments as a result of a 999 call and if you are collected by the ambulance on the street or anywhere that is on the public domain you are deemed to be a public patient and can not be sent to a private system hospital.When asked this question, can you arrange for him to be transferred to a private system hospital? ; the Administrator of the public hospital said "PRIVATE HOSPITALS DO NOT WANT SICK PATIENTS" . My question to the general public like yourselves is what is the point in private insurance if you get stuck in the public system through no fault of your own.

brandy,

What actions do you propose that the Government take to ‘reduce/limit the obscene profits from the drug companies’?

‘This is where I believe the problem lies....though I don't see much acknowledgement in the posts.’ Maybe that is because other posters do not agree with your assumption.

Maybe the pharmacies are best placed to dictate to the drug companies – after all they retail their product. I do notice of late that many pharmacies are selling generic medicines. The best way to hit any seller is in the pocket – after all that is what the Government is doing to the pharmacists and just hear them squeal!

Your closing comment seems to be a challenge to me to respond to your post. Well the above is my reply – and what you consider to be obvious may be obviously wrong to others but I bet you won’t admit that!

Now this was my point Brandy, how come the EXACT same medicines are cheaper abroad, sometimes up to 45% cheaper!! Even the ones made here, can be exported and bought in European pharmacies and posted back here - as a colleague of mine does, for less than 3/4 of the price you'd get them here and even 80 mile sup the road from our capital city they are cheaper. Now if the pharmaciies, as they claim, are not benefitting and Joe Public isn'tr benefitting - who is exactly??? Quite right - the elephant in the room??

Agree with point 66, and also we should remember that another contributing factor is drug mis-use. People taking their prescribed antibiotics for a few days and then ceasing the course when the symptoms disappear. We have the existance of new superbugs which are resistant to antibiotics that would have proved effective in the past. Then of course there are people who take antiB's when they come down with colds. I have seen men who dont suffer from asthma taking ventolin inhalers as some sort of fitness prophylactic before a football match. Drugs are over prescribed but they are also mis-used.

Witofire

In answer to your post # 66 you wrote:-

-Chrissie, There is a notice on the wall of my GP's waiting room that says, "Sometimes the best medicine is no medicine". It should have been there thirty years ago and a copy in his surgery as well. GPs now realise that drugs are overprescribed.

My opinion on above, you generalise all GP's here - 30 years ago GPs did not over prescribe (particularly antibiotics) it is now in the most latter years that GP's were doing same. I do remember that our Editor posted sometime over the last 18 months or so an article relating (to Gps being advised not to over prescribe particularly antibiotics) and I be 99% sure this was instruced by the HSE. If you care to find same go surf irishhealth.com

Another point 30 years ago patients didn't know what their true condition was relating to major or minor issues concerning their health. Patients didn't know 30 years ago that when they had an organ/lump/lesion excised from their body that it was sent to London to be analized in their Histopathology Centres to find out the prognosis whether it be malignant or benign. 30 years ago we only had radiation treatment for cancer, and no chemo nor oncologists. Also 30 years ago there wasn't all these infections that we have seen over recent years,and are still seeing.

You also said "Don't confuse the genuine prescriptions as in your case with the general problem".

I didn't confuse them, the lists I gave were not accounted to my general problem. (I said 5 times my life was saved. What I probably should have said due to technology this is how they saved me-so I say it now) I spoke for the ones I witnessed who were sick from heart problems etc., who need their meds. and these are the ones who don't know whether their Pharmacy will be opened for business as usual come 1st September 2009. As I said on my post I have Unicare. I also said in 1992 due to lack of getting antibiotics I was hospitilised.

You also said "The government are right to curtail the massive profits made by pharmacists at the expense of the taxpayer. If those massive profits were not being achieved we would not have multinational pharmacists to buy out Independent Pharmacies clamouring to buy out Independent Pharmacies in Ireland".

Can you put forward these Multinational Pharmacies here clamouring to buy out to the likes of myself and others as in you seem to bear so much knowledge of medico type issues.

Anonymous thanks for your post # 59 where you said "A healthier lifestyle will not completely remove the need for medication. In fact we are living longer now thinks in parts to modern medicine".

Chrissie

Chrissie,

How my comment about one GP can lead you to accuse me of generalising all GPs is absolutely amazing! Thirty years ago I witnessed Penicillin grossly overprescribed on a regular basis so you are incorrect in assuming that this was a modern practice. What is recent is a move to curtail this overprescribing. Your own comments support this and I do not need to surf anywhere to see that.

Your comments on the ignorance of patients of thirty years ago is a masterpiece of the very generalisation you are so quick to accuse me of.

If you and anonymous read my earlier post again you will see that I said, “Too much medicine is making us sicker and poorer. We, the patients are to blame! We must lead a healthier lifestyle and we will need less medicine.” It puzzles me to find you read that to mean that a healthier lifestyle will remove the need for medication.

Your second last paragraph would seem to indicate that you are a small pharmacist. If so it is strange that you are unaware of any multinationals who have bought pharmacies here! If you are that much in the dark I would not like you to dispense for me.

After reading my post # 73 I made 2 typing errors. Should be 1st August instead of 1st September. 2nd one thinks, should be thanks.

Chrissie

Buzz is absolutely correct saying that a big problem is people not finishing their perscribed course of antibiotics. Once people feel better they stop taking them and this leaves the way open for bugs to get stronger. Another huge factor which anyone with eyes to see it can recognise is hospital hygiene. Chrissie, if you had much dealings with hospitals 20 or 25 years ago you'll know that the smell of disinfectant would nearly meet you at the door. Now there's none of that and we have superbugs, not in the community among people who ordinarily need to take antibiotics for various illness but in hospital patients after surgery. But now due to the over-cautiousness of GPs in perscribing antibiotics, I have heard more than one case like the terrible sitiuation which happened with yourself Chrissie. One young guy here in our office suffers with persistent ear infections. He went to see his GP but a locum was on instead who perscribed him half the usual dosage of antibiotic - the result was the infection worsened within 48 hours he was being treated for a perforated eardrum. The second case was a neighbour of our own who went in with a stomach problem, didn't get the antibiotic he needed and 5 days later ended up in hospital on high-dose IV antibiotics and a drip.

Most certainly not. They do not affect me so I can say what I think impartially. Are many to quit in any large city? No. They know the medical card and drug subsidisation schemes are very well worth their while and want to hold on to their customers because it could otherwise go to  the neighbouring pharmacist and most likely not come back. They are blaming the HSE and the minister. Neither of those selected the chosen areas where the pharmacists are withdrawing their services. This withdrawal is where it is hoped the customers will be most hurt and scream loudest so that the pharmacists can hold on to their exorbitant profits. they are not satisfied with a reasonable amount, which they did get some years ago, no they want to hold on to the fat. I know one Irish town where one chemist has withdrawn services to the old and others; he is young and does not know what it is to have a reasonable profit and a good living. It appears to me, and to others, that he want to continue on the tiger type life which he has grown accustomed to, never havein lived like his father and mother had to when they had to really work for an average living. Let those who stop serving the weak out on their own.

Witofire Re: your post #74 to myself after reading it I can honestly say that I really do not know where you're coming from, and how you could write particularly at end of your post e.g.

At end of your post you said "Your second last paragraph would seem to indicate that you are a small pharmacist. If so it is strange that you are unaware of any multinationals who have bought pharmacies here! If you are that much in the dark I would not like you to dispense for me."

Now I quote what I wrote on post # 73 to yourself referring to this 2nd last paragraph I wrote. "Can you put forward these multinational pharmacies here clamouring to buy out to the likes of myself and others as in you seam to bear so much knowledge of medico type isssues"

Now I put it to you based on supposition on my above paragraph just goes to show that if one decides to jump into the deep end and type away instead of giving an overview of the full information which has been provided to them by someone, as in my posts here. Then you would see what I wrote, none of which never incited that I be a Pharmacist clamouring to buy out myself and others Above does not state that I am a Pharmacist.

Whom I referred to were:- All users e.g. customers/patients who go to their regular pharmacist under the Long Term Illness Scheme, Drugs Payments Scheme, Medical Card Scheme etc. We have seen the likes of this happen in some companies and organizations when the person in charge does not see what's fully outlined in front of them. They in turn home in to tunnel vision, then have it typed and sign same. I wouldn't even ever imagine that you may conclude what you did conclude on the basis of one paragraph from myself.

As regards your 1st Paragraph, I stand by my contention of what I have already said to you about GPs and don't wish to go further into this subject.

Your 2nd paragraph:- "Your comments on the ignorance of patients of thirty years ago is a masterpiece of the very generalisation you are so quick to accuse me of".

Response to above my comments prompted me to write about conditions 30 years ago due to yourself bringing it to my attention of 30 years ago. You'll see it in you post # 66. Also in above was not a masterpiece what I wrote of others illnesses, so I'm not so quick to accuse.

Your 3rd paragraph:- "If you and anonymous read my earlier post again you will see that I said "Too much medicine is making us sicker and poorer we, the patients are to blame! We must lead a healthier lifestyle and we will need less medicine."

Above refers to your post # 66 what you have omitted in above "We blame everyone else but ourselves".

This post # 66 kick started my adrenalin flowing into action to post comments to you because when I witnessed others besides myself fall victim to life threathening situations you are the one than generalises not myself. Now does this clear the air of all enquiries relating to yourself and myself.

I will not not go further on this subject, I am totally amazed that you would ever ponder on the idea that I be a Pharmacist and all based on just one paragraph I wrote. What I wrote about was concern for the sick and all those dependant on whichever drugs scheme they are supposedly under according to the HSE and the Irish Pharmaceutical Union.

My 1st post here was for IPU now after learning what's happening since the 1st August 2009 "Unsure who's right now". Our Republic today will see for themselves what's on offer when reports come in left right and centre from all our Medias.

Chrissie

for those who will not receive meds, may end up in hospital costing more money because of no talks with Mary Hearney HSE and IPU and for all those that may die because of all their in-actions

Smile because I don't take offense in what's written about myself, but wish my post to be submitted in it's entirity to vindicate myself

re post 78 "How often do GP's for instance prescribe antibiotics for viral infections"... one would hope never! If my GP prescribed antibiotics for a viral infection I would not be returning! 

Auditor, if there are a lot of unused prescription drugs accumulating in homes and these are antibiotics then this proves axactly what Buzz was saying  - that peoiple once btter do not finish their perscribe course of antibiotics and this leaves the way for infections to return and get stronger. Why would a GP perscribe antibiotics for viral infections??? They would have no effect. Wyn would any GP who knows their job, do this??

Brandy,

I agree with your points 1, 2 and 3 - with all your post actually. Why not?

Chrissie,

You're having a debate all by yourself!

I just read my post 4th August # 80. I see I made typing errors. To correct same I wrote post # 66 twice, should have been post # 54 twice.

Chrissie

Auditor, given that the ordinary 'man-in-the-street' not to mantion every pharmacist knows that antibiotics are useless for a virus why then would any GP who knows what they're doing, perscribe them for a virus???

Why on earth would a person who is ill go to the trouble of going to the doctor and the pharmacist and then not take their perscribed medication?? The mind boggles.

I am still very worried by the "many GPS prescribe antibiotics for viruses" comment!

Auditor your post # 83 Well I disregard your writing concerning myself. You believe I am not a Pharmacist - don't much care what you do believe.

Witofire your post # 84 I also disregard your one too. You, yourself, brought this into this discussion over the pharmacists dispute-not myself. I'm typing now what you wrote in all it's entirity:-

Witofire Posted: 24/07/2009 21:16 # 54

Too much medicine is making us sicker and poorer. We, the patients are to blame! We must lead a healthier lifestyle and we will need less medicine. All the frenzied cycle of GP, consultant, pharmacist with it's ensuing demand for ever more drugs is causing a culture of dependence that is counter-productive. We blame everyone else but ourselves.

Now I've typed this complete, maybe I should have done so on my previous post. Above made me believe and I still do that you generalise about a lot of things in your posts here. You deemed myself to be a Pharmacist on (one paragraph) I wrote. Cant you see what your parapraph sends out.

Witofire at this stage don't care what you say.

Chrissie

The article says that antibiotics are being overprescribed. This is not the same as being misprescribed. It is the PATIENTS who are taking the antibtiotics (no doubt left over from their last course which they did not complete) for illnesses against which they have no effect.

Over prescribing antibiotics for bacterial infections I could accept, but perscrbing antibiotics for viral infections when even the man in the street knows they don't work for it, ridiculous. Sore throats and chest infections can be bacterial - I have experienced them myself.

Chrissie,

Your statement in Post # 80, "Can you put forward these Multinational Pharmacies here clamouring to buy out to the likes of myself and others", must surely be taken to indicate that you are small pharmacist. If you meant something else please explain! I would be delighted to have it clarified.

Those of us who do need drugs on a regular basis must remember the pharmacies that stayed open during this courageous action by the government to curb the greed of pharmacists. Pity we couldn't have tackled the banks in time in like manner!

My opinions in my Post #74 are based on fact. You should take a look at the link on Auditor's Post #91 and visit such other informative sites before you ridicule other posters on this site who are genuinely attempting to contribute to this discussion.

Had a discussion with GP yesterday, apparently the pharmacists are being asked to make up the difference between what they BUY the drugs for and what the government REIMBURSE them for. Example Ventolin inhaler will cost the pharmacist about €7.60 to buy. The government will provide €7.00 towards it. The pharmacy is expected to pick up the 60c difference. With a lot of medical card holders who have chronic illness, the difference can be a significant sum, twenty or thirty euro a month. Now consider the amount of medical card patients a pharmacy may have assigned to it. I am not particularly "for" any school of thought here, but that is the example that was put to me, for what it's worth.

Note: I never support the act of holding sick, elderly, pupils etc to "ransom" in order to punish the fat cats.

Buzz, overprescribed as used here and in the British Medical Journals mean given when not needed. Personally I view it as inappropriate prescribing but it all means the one thing - people are been given access to controlled drugs that they dont require and its compromising their health and creating more resilient infections. The key point is that when one takes a broad spectrum antibiotic (not tailored for the specific infection as tested) for a sickness which they really don't need, this antibitoic also kills good bacteria in their system and awhere it doesn't fully kill bad bacteria which allows them to mutute into more resileint bacteria. The end result is a more immuno compromised person and more superbugs which is a double whammy for general population health - oh and more money for GP's, Pharmacists and Drug Companies...

buzz,

A Ventolin inhaler contains 200 puffs. At two puffs twice daily it will last fifty days. Ventolin is used by asthmatics during an attack only for relief and is not normally used continuously on a regular basis. Becotide or suchlike is used daily as prevention. Therefore the worst case scenario is one Ventolin in one month maybe a few months of each year. How this works out at twenty or thirty euro per month per patient puzzles me. Is this an example of misinformation? I doubt if the pharmacist will be operating at a loss and I doubt that the example your doctor gave you is the whole truth.

Buzz,

As the parent of a child with asthma, I would be over the moon to get a ventolin inhaler for anywhere close to €7. The normal price in the chemist is in the region of €25. I think that your conversation with your GP is a good illustration of cronies supporting each other and spinning the facts (ie the GP supporting the pharmacist)

Buzz, overprescribed as used here and in the British Medical Journals mean given when not needed

True, but the distinction I am making is this. Prescribing when it's not needed ie if the person is not actually ill enough to warrant medicinal treatment, and prescribing an antibiotic for a VIRUS. These are two very different things. It is one thing to give some an anitbiotic when they do not necessarily need drugs and are capable of fighting the illness themsleves, QUITE another to give them for a VIRUS.

Auditor thanks for the posting. It is not news to me how over use or incomplete courses of antibiotics leads to resistant strains, I did study Biochem in college, aside form whihc I think MOST people know this anyway but yes I agree people are too quick to go running to their GPs. It is the same with babies and young children aswell I have noticed. There is a craze now of excessive use of cleaners which I feel in later life WILL adversely affect the child's immune system. You know those products that "kill 99.9% of germs" and there are adds showing mothers (or Fathers) using them neat on a high chair table section and then feeding their child food directly off the table. Sorry for veering off topic but yes I think that people are not being allowed to develop their own natural immunity anymore.

Witofire Re: your post # 94 on your 1st paragraph you now tell myself true proof that you still believe I am a Pharmacist. To 1st Paragraph I've already stated in my post # 80 what I meant, so I do not have to clarify it further.

As regards your 2nd paragraph to add to that, I found information that Mary Harney put forward. She said it's all written into Law meaning the contract with INO and the HSE, it's going before the Courts in October. I found it here on irish.health.com dated 6th August. So it be my opinion as a patient/client depending on my meds each month that the chaos that has been reported, still is happening I go to www.hse.ie each day to see if the Pharmacy I give my prescription to is still on List. I even double check it by ringing my chemist I give prescription to. I also heard on news about 2 days ago, perhaps posters here heard it too. A Professor in Neurology out in Beaumont Hospital said All those on anti-seizure drugs need them, he also said all those needing insulin for diabetes need same" Now bare in mind I not quote him word for word". I know it to be Fact that my being on anti-seizure drugs, but now I am off them for some years now because of no seizures happening to me. It be my opinion that some of those who are on anti-seizure meds may die if they have to wait just say 1,2,3, days before they receive their meds from pharmacies that may not have enough stock of meds. Plus all the outlets run by the HSE may or may have not enough stocked up meds to administer to patients/clients.

Chrissie

To all posters here I am not a Pharmacist-I have other posts here that I believe wiil prove different

Hi James, sorry but I am simply relaying information from a conversation my a GP, and those were the figures presented. I am simply going on what I was told, and in fact I DO remember being in town once and my partner had to get an emergency supply of ventolin ie no prescription so normal charge applied and it was in or around the eight euro mark. I would like to know who is charging you 25! Regards

buzz,

A Ventolin inhaler contains 200 puffs. At two puffs twice daily it will last fifty days. Ventolin is used by asthmatics during an attack only for relief and is not normally used continuously on a regular basis. Becotide or suchlike is used daily as prevention. Therefore the worst case scenario is one Ventolin in one month maybe a few months of each year. How this works out at twenty or thirty euro per month per patient puzzles me. Is this an example of misinformation? I doubt if the pharmacist will be operating at a loss and I doubt that the example your doctor gave you is the whole truth.

Some sufferers DO require more than the so called recommended dose (and please do not fight me on this one because believe me I have been in A&E so many times with my partner with asthmatic attacks we have REALLY been through the mill on this one, going as far as intubation at one point) I am aware there are preventers (becotide, serotide etc) trust me we have been there. My partner has been referred on to specialist for controlling the asthma because of the required over use of ventolin but nothing can really be done (short of expecting her to sit on a wooden floor all day drinking filtered water, eating boiled potatoes and wearing a dust mask)

I am not in support of the pharmacists actions as I believe it is wrong to hold sick people to ransom and I believe I clarified that in a previous post did I not?

Thank you.

Auditor where do you get off calling me naiive? Because I RELAY something that I am told by a medical professional who is making conversation?? If by "naive" you mean "does not automatically assume the worst of people" then perhaps you are right, though in that case, thank you because I would not WANT to be any other way.

No.

The pharmacists are responsible for the current mess and are purposely making matters worse with mis-information, while using ill people as sitting ducks. They are very much overpaid and the HSE has no option but to call their bluff!!!

hi all

i think its a disgrace that the chemists had to go on strike, my son who has autism is due his new script this week, i only hope our pharmacist is open by then.

Watching Minister Harney on Prime Last Night, I suddenly realised she is not going to make much of an effort to resolve this dispute.  After all she is now a long time Minister for health and what has she really done to improve services for any member of the community.  We forget she is not standing in the next general election. I wonder does she care at all about the population of this country.  By the way I do not agree with the pharmacists.  Everybody is suffering in this recession.  They should take a cut the same as everybody else.

I do not. Why did the HSE need to seek an injunction against some pharmacist groups? Because those groups closed their shops without giving full notice of withdrawal, or apparently any notice of closing. But why did they close? In my opinion to put pressure on the state to continue paying exorbitant costs for medicines under state schemes so that these companies can meet their big mortgages on so many of the premises they bought in the boom times. In other words, to keep the taxpayer coughing up to meet the result of their greed in expanding so much.

The pharmacists need to be brought to their senses and begin to realise that their service should be no more than adequately paid for, not extravagantly overpaid.

buzz,

Who prescribed the “required over use of Ventolin” which required referral of the patient to a specialist? Overuse of Ventolin can lead to death in the worst case scenario. Why would anyone exceed the prescribed dose knowing this?

As a chronic allergic asthmatic I take my two puffs of Becotide 100 twice daily as a preventative and as a result very rarely have to resort to Ventolin for relief.

Your dismissive remarks about environment, diet and protection would seem to indicate that you advocate overuse of Ventolin over protection. This is the train of thought we need to address to curtail the unnecessary use of all drugs with the resulting impact on the public purse.

No. Anyway, they have lost this battle. They now say they will talk to the Minister, the Minister says she will talk to them on specific matters when they are back doing their job. Not quite the same thing. They tried to bluff the HSE and the Minister and their bluff was called.

Pharmacists need to reflect on the lessons of the last week or so. Tough guy stuff may play well with their own internal audience but IPU president Liz Hoctor's tone and tactics made them no friends among the general public. Pharmacists have been seen as greedy and overpaid, and have put themselves outside the general view of health service providers as caring. Many of them are caring and professional people, of course, but that is not the public perception now. They are going to have mend fences with their customers.

What the minority who left the methadone users to swing in the wind can do is between them and their consciences. The refusal of the IPU to condemn this was simply shameful, and the more thoughtful members should be having very strong words with their leadership about this.

Work to do, guys.

Buzz,

There is nothing wrong per se in being naive. However, to take at face value the comments of a GP in this dispute, with all the spinning of facts going on by both sides, is in fact being naive in the extreme. GPs at the end of the day are cronies of the pharmacists and so are naturally going to be biased in how they spin the information. As you no doubt realise GPs are likely to be in the firing line at some point in the near future so they will need the support of their cronies then.

I do not trust either side in this dispute. The HSE are infamous for distorting the truth in a manner to mislead the public. However on the other hand any pharmacist that I am aware of have a very comfortable lifestyle and clearly have been riding on the back of the celtic tiger like so many other groups. At the end of the day it is clear from the figures that a lot of money is being made in this country from medicines and as a country the money has run out.

Incidentally you ask who is charging the €25 for ventolin. The answer is our local pharmacy. Now I will admit that our prescription changed a few years ago and I going on memory. However I am confident that the price was in the 20-25 euro ball park and nowhere near the €7 that you friendly GP mentioned.

Hi James I understand what you are saying re backing one another up, but my point was, and still is, that we either believe what someone says or we dont. What I pointed out was that I would rather be the "believer" than the "non believer" - simple as that. Now, without seeking out petty arguments, I am genuinely interested in this one, how is it that some people are being charged one price and others completely different? I am CERTAIN that this is the price range we were charged, because I remember commenting that the price had gone above the seven euro range.

Hi James just to clarify in my previosu posts I did in fact mention that the "seven euro" price range was one which I had experienced personally and not simply info given to me by a doctor. Would it be related to the fact that my partner was on illness benefit? On these occasions (emergency supply) there was no prescription and we were under the impression that this was the full price. Regards

Now that Mary has the Pharmacists on the run (Thank God) maybe she could be given Dail "REFORM AND CUT BACKS" BY OUR BRAVE Taoiseach to see out her political career. And when she retires she could be come a consultant and employ Fine gael's James Reilly to bring these over paid public servants back to a relative parity to the average industrial (worker's wage). -eck it here I go dreaming again.

Seven years ago, the treasurer of the Irish Pharmacy Union, Dermot Twomey, warned that the good times would not last forever for the country’s 1,600 pharmacies. Mr Twomey said Ms Harney’s move would wipe an average of €106,000 a year from the bottom line of an average pharmacy – not €82,000 as stated by the minister.

If that is the fraction that Mary Harney is clawing back the balance was a nice little earner - of taxpayers money.

Chairman of the independent body set up to examine pharmacy pricing, Sean Dorgan, said many pharmacies had been bought and sold at "bubble prices", a level that was double what normal businesses were selling at.

It is difficult to have sympathy with their predicament which was caused by the same greed that has our economy in the state it is presently in. We cannot blame Mary Harney for that!

The "fraction" that Mary Harney has reduced the payments to pharmacists by is a percentage of the price, not the profit. In fact the "fraction" is more than the margin pharmacists have on drugs, so her "fraction" brings the amount pharmacists are reimbursed for a drug to less than the price they pay for it.

Scapegoat, apart from the fact that you have conveniently omitted the rebate/discount from your calculations, even if this was the case nobody is forcing the business on each individual pharmacist. If as with all contracts they don't like the price then don't take the contract. If Harney really wanted to push on with this issue each pharmacist would have to tender for their area and if the pharmacists are feeling the wind of real competition now then they would see what competition other businesses such as hotels, corner shops and clothes stores are facing. Welcome to the real world from what was a sheltered environent. Now who was it who said that professions existed to screw the customer or sopmething like that...

Auditor,  I have commented on rebates in my posts on other threads on this issue.  However a rebate is variable, negotiated and very which at the whim of the manufacturers and distributors.  While a large chain might get considerable rebates, a single community pharmacy will get very little.  I should probably point out that I have absolutely no vested interests in this issue.  I have in the past worked in a number of pharmaceutical distributors which is where my knowledge comes from.

My main arguments throughout all of these discussion are simple:

1)  Pharmacists are not "creaming" the price difference between Ireland and other countries as has been claimed by some.  The price the charge for prescription drugs is fixed.

2)  The price which the government is now proposing to pay them for prescription drugs is less than the base wholesale price - rebates are NOT guaranteed and are dependent upon a number of factors.

3)  On this basis, any pharmacist has the right to cancel the contract and not operate the scheme.

Auditor,

You mention that the rebate is 8% - is this the minimum or average current rebate? But rebates are not guaranteed. They are given by the distributors/manufacturers based on purchases and could theoretically be withdrawn or reduced at any time. The only purpose of the rebate is to allow wholesale prices to be fixed while at the same time giving better wholesale prices to larger retailers who purchase more. This was supposed to make the margins achieved by pharmacy more transparent and standard but in fact has done exactly the opposite and has rendered it almost impossible to calculate margins of the entire sector. The average margin might be OK and possibly even excessive, but not everyone has the same margin! Many smaller pharmacies will lose money.

Has anyone noticed that my DPS medication has not gotten cheaper on our prescriptions? Several people have said this to me. I thought the profit was reduced from 50 % to 20 % and yet when I got my monthly DPS in August it seemed to be dearer than the former month ??? I don't get 100 euro of medication but normally I would pay 86 euro and now I am paid 89 euro approximately. Its as if I'm still paying 50% profit but the chemist is charging me the fee 5 euro but not the profit 20 %. Shouldn't my medicine be cheaper? Does Irish health .com know the why DPS has increased. My chemist told me my medicine got dearer with inflation. I don't believe him.

Yeah, I think the medicine is after getting dearer too. For one batch of my medicines I had to pay the full whack of 100 euros but they shouldn't have been that dear. We need to question this from now on and put a stop to it.