I THINK THE DOCTORS SHOULD PAY THEIR RECEPTIONISTS RATHER THAN HAVING THE GOVERNMENT PAYING THEM EVEN WHEN THEY ARE DOING PRIVATE WORK. EACH DOCTOR HAS THEIR OWN SECRETARY. SURELY THEY CAN'T HAVE 40 HOURS OF PAPER WORK TO DO EACH WEEK AND IF SO WHY SHOULD THE PUBLIC PAY FOR IT?

Pay cuts are not the way to go. Increases in taxes are a more fair method of collecting needed funds. Taxes can be adjusted to take account of the lower paid but the whole tax system needs an immediate flush out. There should be no tax exemption for the Horsy people, those who write books and those like Bono. Then those on 200,000 plus should have a 55% tax, 150,000 plus pay 50%, 100,000 pay 45% and sliding scale from there. Under 40,000 pay 22% but tax points should mean that few of these would have much if any to pay. The current levy should be scrapped and included in the new tax regime.

NO, of course not. They didn't get us into this mess so why should they pay to get us out of it? Let the incompetent Government ministers, the no-nothing economists, the fat cat bankers and the greedy developers pay. Bring in property taxes and higher income tax for the wealthy.

Obviously a lot of public servants & nurses on this web site !!

Fair play.

Anonymous - just pick any name !!

Tax rates need to change. Tax cuts kept the PD`s in power for long enough.

I`d have to say

< 36,400 20%

excess to 100,000 - 44%

over 100,000 - 48%

PRSI systems - needs to be totally revamped. Stop penalising employers with 10.75% rate and encourage job creation.

I believe that the very high levels of absenteeism needs to be tackled in the HSE. Agency nursing costs a fortune to replace absent staff.

I believe all public servants should take a pay cut - they whinged and cried and threatened strikes a few years ago because they wanted to be compared to the private sector and they got their benchmarking. These private workers to whom they wanted to be compared with are now joining ever lengtheing dole queues so of course public servants should give something back.

the government got us into this mess,let them start by doing some work, for a start get rid of all junior ministers. The CHIEF CLOWN, BRIAN COWAN, who is one of the highest paid so called poloticians in the world should take a 50% cut in pay. Then TAX BONO, and the rest of all the tax exiles, its simple change the law, ie, if you hold an irish passport you pay taxes, no matter what country you have your dinner in.

As a worker in the private industry (and grateful to still be called that) I think that the public servants should feel the same pain as the private sector. I am terrified for my job and both my parents' jobs, we are all private sector workers and are so vulnerable. Pay cuts are happening everywhere, particularly in my industry (engineering) its just we don't have union reps to run to the media for us, so nobody is hearing about it. 4 in 10 architects are on the dole, engineers are not far behind, we are people who have worked just as hard for our education as anybody, listened when the government encouraged students into engineering, borrowed correctly based on our professional income and we are suffering. The public sector cannot continue to gloat over us - I have at least 2 family members who are proud of how safe their public jobs are. If there are unrealistic wages or excessive staff then the country has to get real and reduce wastage.

why should they take a pay cut, do you see Brian Cowen or Mary Harney taking a pay cut? or any of the politicians. kick them out. lets have another general election and put people into office that care for us not these ones who only think of themselves.

my son gets taxed on the miserly job seekers allowance because he had earnings for the first five months before losing his job. cecila ahearn earns millions, bono earns millions, no tax paid on any of their earnings. How can it be legal to tax somebody earning low wages and those raking in millions pay nothing. Wish i had the money to take a court challange to this unfair law.

You can buy passports !! The rich will always find a way to avoid paying tax.

We put up with it and we behave as if we are indebted to these peopl

We have a Government that are INCAPABLE of making FAIR decisions. They are afraid of public service unions. This is why they HURT the vulnerable.

I think in hard times like these we need to work together. Have you ever thought about of what you like more? Pay cuts or unemployment? Well if you would have any sense you would go for Pay cuts.........

And I would like to suggest the goverment should lower the cost of living. Food prices (where else will you pay 4.30 for 4 slices of ham), electricity and gas/oil prices as we are being screwed in the Republic of Ireland.

I wholeheartedly agree with every one of the foregoing contributions. Nurses and midwives would be very far down the scale of those I would penalise. Let's start at the top -- Brian Cowen and his cohorts and all the junior ministers should either take a large pay cut or get out. Likewise comments about Bono -- he goes all around the world asking us to feed the poor; if he paid his full taxes in this country he could help a lot of poor people, and he still would not go hungry!

No, which of the Ministers or T.D's would do the Garda job for the money they are paid. Which of the Ministers ( Heaven forbid) would work in the Health Service as it is constructed today. Here are a few suggestions for cutting back on expenses. Let those who are the better paid show the example by taking the pay cuts. Let the Ministers and T.D's give up their entitlement to their expenses for a start for the coming year, for example. Remember Nurses, Garda, Fire Brigade service do not get a three month (?) break like the teachers each year. Do not get the breaks like the T.D's each year. We can do without half the T.D's in Dail Eireann, we cannot do without the Garda or the Nurses, etc.

No they should not have to pay for this Governments' ineptitude.

Most are women who are in the lower paid bracket of these services, some only working a few days a week so that they can help towards their childrens educations and upkeep as the Government will not provide adequate funding for families.

The middle class, low paid workers get hit up every time there is a crisis in this country. Yet they take the brunt of extra taxes and get nothing in return, no free medical cards, bin waivers, school book help, etc. Nor do they get the perks of the ministers and top executives who get away scott free all the time.

Cut the pay of the top earners in the Public and Civil Service and let the lower paid, over worked and totally ignored REAL workers alone to get on with their jobs and look after the public which is what they do every day without any thanks.

No I do not believe Nurses or Midwives should take pay cuts, but do put the nurses back nursing and not pen pushing, and cut out agency nurses. I do believe there are some public servents in other departments who should take pay cuts particularly the top earners, and anyone found taking sick days when not necessary should be fired if they could be done without they are not needed. they also lack a committment.

I'm a civil servant, and while of course no-one wants a pay cut, I would sacrifice 15% of my salary if other measures were also being taken. I think the country's economy is really in dire straits, and if it collapses entirely then we'll all suffer, public servants or not.

I dont think they should take paycuts but I think a pay freeze would be acceptable to most people but private sector as well as public

Two options that would be better than pay cuts - 1) look at lay offs for those who are under performing - I am sure that everyone in the public sector can think of someone who doesn't pull their weight and doesn't care either! If they were in the private sector they would go so they should not be able to hide under the protective arm of the public sector. 2) look at tax system review introduce a third rate for the higher paid.

Try this for a simple way to make everybody pay according to their means. No tax up to €10,000 and free essentials like housing and health care. After €10,000 charge a percentage across every one else's income starting at 5% and go up to 60%, this would work out something like this 5% upto €15,000, 10% upto €25,000, 15% upto €35,000, 25% upto €50,000, 35% upto €75,000, 45% upto €100,000, 50% on every one over €100,000. After all if someone on 200,000 would still have as much take home pay as one on half that so they both could play the same golf clubs. If politicians were really serious about being fair they would take the GDP and divide by the number of working people and work out how much they can afford to pay and still have a decent take home pay. Then they would stop all lobbyists and charge a fee for business people to use the planners time or other public servants time pay this money into the revelent section of the economy like housing to help pay for affordable or council houses. Roads, buses,trains carparks amenieties etc. I know it would need an accountant or economist to work out the precise details but wouldn't make a great change to creating reports that have no money to implement them.

Absolutely NO. nurses work for a living.

Not all public servants are nurses or gardai or politicians. Pay cuts in any sector is not the way to go. Tax higher earners who earn over a 100k at the 48%, regardless of where they work. Tax the horse breeders. Tax Bono and those that don't pay tax.

They should stop paying off public servants. If you cause trouble in the public service they pay you off, it costs the tax payer hundreds of thousands per year and no-one pays any attention to that!

Get rid of Brian Cowan, it's either his way or the high-way. Get rid of junior ministers.

I don't think they have a clue how to get the country out of this mess but I do think that the all parties (Cowan and Kenny) should work together, put aside their ridiculous disagrements and put their heads together.

I voted no. The public sector are always the first in the firing line. While the private sector were earning large sums of money, enjoying high living standards etc., the majority of public sector workers were earning a 'normal' amount of money - not obscene amounts- as in other areas. Yet the public sector employees are, as usual, the scapegoats.

I think workers in the public service and also private industry should be willing to take a pay cut if necessary. Surely a job paying slightly less is better than no job. If we tighten our belts now, hopefully things will improve in a year or 2 and we can ask for an increase then and cite our cooperation during the harder times.

I am a public servant but I would be willing to take a pay cut and play my part if that is what is required - I have always seen the permanent and pensionable perks of my job as being very valuable, despite never having the opportunity for bonuses or the huge salary hikes that many in the private sector have enjoyed during the boom years (ie ALL my friends who work in the private sector)

However, I do think there should be a cut off, surely people earning less than say €35k should be exempt from any cut? There are many in the public sector earning less than this and I think it would be unfair to penalise people like that.

I also totally agree that the tax emeptions for artists should be abolished with immediate effect. With all due respect to Bono, Cecilia Aherne and the like, it is ridiculous that they should not pay their dues to this country (irrespective of their charitable work etc).

Just another quick comment, people seem to be concentrating on medical/nursing staff when they are talking about pay cuts. Please remember that there are a huge amount of support workers in the HSE ie porters, care staff, cleaning staff, kitchen staff, clerical staff, ambulance staff. Everybody in the public service pay their taxes and levys like the private sector. Yes I know we have more job security but sometimes I think its developing into a "war" between private and public sector and wonder ultimately who benefits from this "manufactured ?" situation.

Fair play Nuala.

We all need to get through this together.

If it looks like we all don`t share the burden there will be major problems ahead socially.

HELLO

PLEASE FORGIVE MY UPPERCASED TYPING, I HAVE VISUAL PROBLEMS.

AS MENTIONED IN THIS FORUM, THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE GETTING HIGH INCREMENTS THEY VOTE IN. ALSO THEY SHOULD LOOK AT TAKING A CUT FROM THEIR SALARY. EVERYONE ELSE IS AFFECTED BY CUT'S SO WHY NOT THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD CUTBACKS & LEAVE THE LOWER PAID EMPLOYEE ALONE, WE ARE BARELY MAKIN ENDS MEET.

EDITOR I HOPE YOU POST THIS, I AM NOT TYPING UPPERCASED OUT OF IGNORANCE, BEST WISHES HOMER.

This country is on it's last legs! This bunch of clowns running it don't have

a clue! Dumb and Dumb eile even have special advisors, we have civil servants

by the bucket load and then we have to pay for outside special advisors. Why?

We have Conor Lenihan telling us he is bringing in more foreign nationals as we need them for the workforce.

I could fill all these jobs that are vacant, ask anybody standing out in hail,

rain and snow for up to three hours to collect their dole if they want a job.

Half of the Irish workforce has been replaced with cheap labour from Poland and other countries. These workers are treated like slaves by most employers and are underpaid, overworked and all to increase the profits of the government driven greed and line the pockets of their cronies.

As a private sector worker recently made redundant I think everyone in the country needs to realise this credit crunch is going to bite hard and deep before we hit rock bottom. With a lot less people paying taxes due to job losses it stands to reason public sector workers will have to bear some of the financial burden to get the country back on track as, quite simply, the money won't be there to pay them. However, before nurses and midwives are asked to take pay cuts, the incompentant Politicians whose shocking lack of planning for the future and cronyism with corrupt bankers & developers landed us in this mess should be front and centre in leading the way. Cut their fat salaries and expense accounts and let's see how big a gap that fills in the 2 billion euro we need to recoup.

As you can see I'm a HSE employee, a very lowly HSE employee, and I earn over €10K below the average industrial wage, (despite the infamous benchmarking). I have several unique qualifications, which in the private sector, could have earned me a lot of money over the years and I've had to listen to things like "what are you doing here?", and "are you mad, you could be earning a fortune out there?". But I didn't go, I stayed where I was and chose a lower wage, job security and a wee pension (trust me it's nothing to write home about despite what the media says).

While the Celtic Tiger roared I was laughed at and told I could be raking it in but when that Tiger needed the vet those same people suddenly looked at me in a different light. I never had a foreign holiday, can't afford a car, don't live in a fancy house never mind owning a villa in Spain but for some reason all their financial greed and missfortune is somehow MY fault. How did that happen? The public service is not to blame for this but we seem to be a fashionable whipping boy for everyone, all political parties and the folks who were previously earning thousands of euros a week and laughing at people like me but are now quite happy to blame me for their own greed.

This is a cheap, nasty and pathetic ploy from a desperate government, they have to give the masses someone to blame for this mess, it couldn't be them oh God no, and at the same time they have to make initial cutbacks of at least 2 billion palatable. The easiest way to do this is to give the masses a whipping boy, give them somebody to hate, someone to blame. It was their fault, it's the fault of the public service. Why? That doesn't matter, just look at them with their cushy jobs and their pensions, psssttt do a press release about absenteism in the HSE and benchmarking, haaa haaa. Stir things up a bit, then when the public really hate 'em introduce redundencies, wage cuts, pay freezes oh and increase pension contributions (that'll come in handy). When the public complain about A&E waiting times, patients on trolleys, waiting times to see consultants, etc it'll be their own fault after all they blamed the public service and not the banks and greedy private service, I mean where did all that money go?

HSE employee. You are right. The media generalise most arguments. We know that not all public servants are well or overpaid. The useless ones give the rest of you a bad name.

We have a useless Govt which brought us to where we are now and they have absolutely NO IDEA what to do.

I am a Civil Servant and like other groups of the public service face an uncertain future as regards pay, increments etc. In response to Polly I don't know where you get the 'bucket load of Civil Servants’ from there are three times as more people in HSE and two times more in Education than the Civil Service (@35,000 employees) - can people not just give us a break we are constantly being picked out as scapegoats!!

In my mind it's simple arithmetic, if I was running a shop and got X amount in profit and this profit has to pay for heat, rent, salaries and some profit for leftover for myself. If the overall profit is halved, the costs for rent and heat remain and must be paid so the only things that can change are the number of employees or the amount that they are paid.

A lot of people seem to forget that in DeVeleras time he reduced public service salaries year on year leading up to WW2 and then gave no increases during the war years. As a consequence public servants could have received 6/7 increments and have been no better off over that time.

I vote for some reduction in pay whether it be a percentage on a sliding scale or a levy that hits everyone including the private sector. Much prefer this than no job at all.

And the Unions can take a hike if they think I will go on strike over this, I don’t see them reducing staff considering we are paying their salaries!!

ob1mac - fair play. That is how business operates. Unfortunately behind all that the owners if they lose their jobs get NOTHING. The bank then call in the personal guarantees. This useless Govt doesn`t even understand that the .5% increase in Vat has effected peoples perception and made them feel that extra bit justified in going North.

Can I just make a point (further to my earlier post) on redundancies in the public sector? Slightly off the point I know but it has been mentioned by a few posters to this thread. I think we all need to be mindful that when we talk about making employees in the public sector redundant we are talking about adding to the ever lengthening dole queues which puts more pressure on the social welfare bill and it means less money being spent on services provided by the private sector. It will be public and civil servants who will be buying cars, hiring architects and contractors etc, so it is good that these people still have some purchasing power.

If people really want to help an ailing economy they should stop shopping in the North. Support this country not the UK!

I ,think no just take a look at your poll and there's your answer,

The way I see it it was the private sector that helped in a very big way to get us into this mess and now the government want the public servants to take more than their share NO WAY.

No one should be asked to take pay cuts. The problem is the Government, aided by the opposition, allowed big business to DO WHAT THEY PLEASED. Why allow people to create wealth through subsidies without including a penalty clause to recoup revenue losses when these people get rich at the nations expense. A wealth tax based on profits should be the ongoing payment that all companies pay for the privilege of doing business in this country. Income tax should be charged by multi band, low rates for low paid,very low rates for the very low paid, middle rate for average industrial wage, and two higher rates for the wealthy to reflect their benifits gained from the Irish nation. Anyone not prepared to accept these terms then let them go to tax shelters somewhere else. Remember the lack of revenue is because the tax take was concentrated on mainly one sector, what about the rich solicitors and consultants who have up to twenty times the average industrial wage. It's a no brainer to tax according to each person's and each business' ability to pay so multi band tax is the fairest way to collect tax. The poor should never be asked to pay as it may not be their fault that life dealt them a bad hand. 

This is a very badly framed question - of course public servants should be willing to help with our recovery though pay cuts are not the best way to do it. However everyone but especially the high earners who benefited from the Tiger must pay more than the public servant proportionately. Give over about pension rights and secure employment. Those who are shouting about this need only blame themselves - why did they not go for a job in the public service if it is that good. AT THE SAME TIME we need to -- cut the number of TDs to 86; wipe out the Senate altogether; cut the number of Ministers to 11; establish a methods of verifying TDs expenses; cut out the pensions for them until they do retire at 65 or are not relected; cut out half of the 'Advisors', (They have not agreed to take a pay cut yet); reorganise the Tax system so that it is fair and that those who earn, sorry, are paid, huge wages like over €150,000 should pay 55%; prevent anyone earning more than €200,000; make musicians and artists pay their due taxes like everyone else; abolish tax breaks and tax perks; and then come to the public servant and ask them to take a pay cut. Of course that will not happen as if the Government did what I have suggested, there would be no need for pay cuts.

I agree wholeheartedly with thomasciaran and the last posting from Anonymous.

Another item I would like to highlight is that many TDs are ex-teachers -- I think it is not generally known that their pensions as teachers continue to accumulate, including all increments; this means that without working as teachers for years they are entitled to the maximum in pensions, added to their TDs' pensions and also, where applicable, Ministers' pensions (and if the worst comes to the worst, they can go back to teaching at the advanced rate of pay!) This all adds up to more than anyone needs, or deserves, or for that matter more than anyone actually earns.

It is time that a root and branch reformation of our Government was carried out but we can't expect the recipients of all this lolly to vote themselves out of it! Frankly, i don't know the answer to it all, short of a revolution, and that is not an impossibility the way things are going!

Nuala , YOUR POST ON THE 27TH/1/09 @ 14:11 I DO AGREE WITH YOU. But the GB government reduced the vat at Xmas to help their selling power and what did our nit wits as a govnmerent do here, they put it up. My view is that this lot of nit wits are not able for the job. I hope they will get their answer in june. To answer the question NO WAY SHOULD ANYONE IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE TAKE A CUT

I think a lot of the time people will shout statistics and lies in order to further their own agenda. Someone yesterday put it quite simply:

A public sector worker, upon retirement will receive one years annual wage TAX FREE. Each year after that, they will receive half the CURRENT WAGE of the position they once held. To benefit form this, throughout a working career, a public sector worker will have to put, on average, 100,000 into their pension.

For a private sector worker to benefit from the SAME pension, they would have to contribute up to e1,000,000 throughout their working life. SO they would have to pay TEN TIMES MORE just to get the SAME benefits.

Does this seem fair?

I am inviting people to correct these facts if they are wrong, comment on their views on them and perhaps provide some justification as to why the public sector act so out upon, when in actual fact, financially, they are in a much better position.

Can I also point out that I have heard the argument about "private sector making hay" during the boom years and can i ask you to maintain a sense of realism when putting across this argument - Just like you tell us that not ALL public sector workers have fat wallets and senior management positions, not ALL (in actual fact a very small minority) private sector workers made it big during the Tiger years.

Lou - that is the case for some but by no means all civil servants.

I am 39 years old and have been a civil servant for 3 years. For the previous 20 years I worked in the private sector, mostly in organisations that did not have a pension scheme, so I have no pension from those years.

I will not get a years salary when I retire as I will not have 40 years service.

My Civil Service pension will be 15% of my salary (at current levels).

I currently pay 6.5% of my salary for my civil service pension. Because 15% of my salary would not be enough to live on (I am not amongst the highly paid), I pay an additional 12% into a private pension fund bringing my total pension contributions before the pension levy to 18.5%. With the pension levy this is just shy of 25% - 13% of which will be for my civil service pension.

According to the pensions board website, it would cost me approximately 10% of my salary to finance a 15% pension privately. MY civil service pension is now COSTING me 3% more than a private pension for a similar amount would.

Public service have the Unions speaking for them

The public service want the cutbacks / taxes raised to be FAIR. If the Govt was to be fair they would be directed towards the public service ie. higher levy, higher taxes and probably 20,000 job cuts.

A recent Irish Times article (believe it or not) indicated that to fund the cost of a public service pension it needed 26% of a persons salary to be put aside.

As a Civil Servant, I am now putting 27% of my salary into my pension...

1. my gross salary is 12% less tha comparable private sector worker doing the same job - as per benchmarking body

2. 1% income levy

3. reduction of approx. 8% with new pension levy

4. no chance of national pay agreements for next few years 6% approx

Total 27% QED

In answer to Lou, fairness has nothing to do with it. Joining the public service is (or at this stage was) a career choice open to everyone. No matter which you have choosen its swings and roundabouts. Just because a lot of people find themselves on the roundabout don't keep piling it on the public sector as they have had their spin there also. Remember if you keep hitting the public service then there can only inevitably be a reduction in the services provided to the public, less teachers, guards, nurses etc. and the consequence of that.

Lou,

The actual benefits in the public sector are a lump sum of 1.5 times the salary plus half the salary as pension. If you use a pension calculator on the Irish Pensions board website it will tell you that to achieve that pension you would need to contribute 18% per annum for 40 years.

The situation before the pension levy is that most public servants are already paying 6.5% towards their pension every year for 40 years. In addition at the last benchmarking exercise a premium of 12.5% was put on the guaranteed pension, which in effect means that even before the pension levy public servants are paying 18.5% for their pension.

The new levy is on average 7%, thus bring the total contributions up to over 25% per annum for 40 years.

So Lou it is fair to say that they are well and truly paying for their pensions.

Lou, when you were deciding on a career why did you not decide to go for the public service since you think it such a money earner? Choice - choice - it is all about choice. You claim that private sector would have to pay in 1 million to get similar pension is inaccurate too. But what about our Government and its wastage? We are taken over by stealth taxes in this country and it is about time that this was all sorted out and have income tax and property tax and service payments and stop there. When we end up in the red like now then increase Taxes and everyone will know what is happening and who is being asked to pay what?

It still remains to be demonstrated that the public sector do not, at the very least receive back what they put in. They moan about having to contribute more but let them try living on e204 a week! The reason I decided not to go into the public sector is because I wanted to actually do something valuable with my life, rather than just sit in an office tapping away on a calculator trying to figure out how the government are trying to screw out of me. There are major chips on shoulders here!

Benchmarking body was and is bulls***.

You are not underpaid by 12%.

All these false reports are banded about. There are not 33 000 millionaires in Ireland as per Bank of Ireland wealth management.

There may be 33 000 families with assets worth 1 million + but they do not ALL have large incomes and their wealth has been wiped out in the last 18 months, shares, pensions, property.................

Do you know what, Lou, it sounds very much like you might have a chip on your shoulder yourself! It's pretty offensive (not to mention trite) to suggest that everyone working in the public sector does absolutely nothing all day long but sponge off the taxpayer. I, like many others, work very hard, over and above my expected hours of duty, including at home on my laptop at night once kids are tucked in bed, for no overtime, time off in lieu or even a thank-you! Nor do I look for any of those things.

Quite simply put, I like my job and I chose to take up this post not because it was public sector but because it was what I wanted to do. The great pension scheme and tremendous comfort of a job for life is offset against a very modest income for someone with the high level of academic qualification (Masters degree is a pre-requisite for my profession) and 14 years of post-qualification experience that I have.

I moved home from London 6 years ago and now work in the public service here.  Am sick and tired of the way people here constantly bicker and fight about public vs private - we're all in this together!  I am in the low-paid bracket by the way and don't mind contributing to the recovery of this country's problems, but please let it be everyone who contributes.  We should be directing our anger at the Government, who squandered money left, right and centre - it is absolutely astonishing to think of how much was wasted.  The poorer sections of society always end up paying more - the bankers are sitting at home with their feet up, contemplating the next game of golf and not worrying about how they are going to pay the bills. 

Do you know what, Lou, it sounds very much like you might have a chip on your shoulder yourself!

- I doubt that. I am not one of the thousands who has spent the past 20 years holding the government to ransom with unreasonable pay demands, and I am not the one out marching every other day of the week so no I believe the chip is firmly on the shoulders of others.

It's pretty offensive (not to mention trite) to suggest that everyone working in the public sector does absolutely nothing all day long but sponge off the taxpayer.

- Again, when did I suggest that you sponge off the taxpayer? Obviously a stupid accusation given that you TOO are a tax payer and I am not for one moment suggesting that you evade tax.

I, like many others, work very hard, over and above my expected hours of duty, including at home on my laptop at night once kids are tucked in bed, for no overtime, time off in lieu or even a thank-you! Nor do I look for any of those things

- perhaps you should look for a different job since your current one seems to be having a martyrdom effect on you. It sounds quite unreasonable that you are expected to do so much above the line of duty and not receive financial compensation for this. Perhaps you should talk to your manager about better working conditions, or find a job that is better suited to you. I once heard it said that if a job is demanding that you put in nearly double the time to achieve desired results then perhaps you are not qualified for it. If you cant get the work done in the alloted time perhaps you should allow someone more efficient a chance at at?

Nuala, you make it sound like working very hard, over and above the expected hours of duty, including at home on the laptop at night once kids are tucked in bed, for no overtime, time off in lieu or even a thank-you, sound like something extra-ordinary. The private sector workers have been doing this for years. And yes, for modest incomes with postgraduate qualifications and years of experience but not huge pay hikes or enormous bonuses. I do agree with your proposal of the 23rd. I would say that anyone on 40K or - which is the average industrial wage should be exempt from a pay cut. Some very good suggestion on here particularly from Thomas Ciaran and Harvey, among others.

Lou, you owe people working in the public service an apology for that remark about sitting in an office. It is beyond decent debate and perhaps is indicative of your 'major chip'.

Dear Anonymous #53 I think you miss my point - it is that I reckon I am fairly typical of anyone with a good work ethic, regardless of the sector they work in, and I was pointing out that Lou's comments are very unfair. I wasn't looking for Brownie points, merely pointing out that most people work hard at their job and, I guess, we should all stop pitching public & private against one another, it's the government and top bankers and developers that got us in the mess we are in!

Btw you should give yourself a nickname so people can ID who they are mailing to! : )

No anonymous I owe nobody an apology. Perhaps the public sector owe others an apology for spending the last ten years holding commuters, sick people and students to ransom in an effort to seek more money than they actually earn. I can assure you I have no chip, I am perfectly happy in my present employment thank you.

Ah Lou will you just take a chill pill and relax a little bit - pointless even engaging in a debate with someone like you.  You obviously have it in for public sector workers and it doesn't matter what we say - you'll just rant on and on!!

Lou & Anon 15.22,

Please stop you childish “oh the private sector are so much better and harder working than the public sector” nonsense. All Nuala was doing was demonstrating that stereotype that you have in your head of lazy inefficient public servants is just that; a stereotype. There are many hardworking and efficient workers in the public sector, just as they are some lazy and inefficient workers in the private sector.

Please stop denigrating public servants in such a personal way and implying that they are a scourge on society and do nothing worthwhile except tap away on calculators. Nurses, guards, doctors, all hospital staff, fire personnel, ambulance personnel, teachers, social workers and so on are all public servants to begin with.

Neither the public sector nor the private sector are perfect here. Property developers and banks were in the private sector and have contributed the most to the current woes of the country. Last time I looked Bank of Ireland was awarding a 3.5% pay increase while the public servants were taking a 7% pension levy. Shops not giving a fair sterling conversation rate are in the private sector and then have the gall to whinge when people go to Newry to avail of the same goods in sterling. 

There are many flaws in all sectors of Irish society. The thing is that the Gov let us down with not dealing with the housing bubble; the banks and property developers made billions out of it and now the ordinary worker in both the public and private sector have to pick up the tab. Most sections of society benefitted during the boom but during this recession the ones really paying the severe price is the ordinary worker. Don’t believe all the IBEC spin. The public sector is not the cause of this recession and sorting out the public sector is not the solution either.

JamesH the public sector have JUST as many misconceptions about US as they claim we have about THEM so they are no better. As a student who suffered personal trauma while trying to undergo the leaving cert while teachers were out on strike, I feel that I am entitled to raise this as an issue. Yes I was annoyed too at the failure to pass on the exchange rate, but the fact that you are using this as a stick against private sector just proves my point - do you really think we are all owners of large multinationals? For every private sector worker who is accountable for the passing on of exchange rates to consumers, how many lower tiered PRIVATE sector workers are there? You accuse me of tarring all public sector with the same brush, but I think you will find that it is a two directional issue here!

Also JamesH I have not said, nor do I believe, that the public sector caused the recession.

I dont think its a case of whether or not I, as a private worker, work harder than a public worker. As said, there are good and bad in both sectors.

I am a normal worker, I did not benefit like some suggest all private workers did from the good times. But just yesterday, redundancies where I work were announced, pay cuts of 5% and 7.5% to the rest of us and we will be reviewed every week to see if we are needed for a full week the following week - so I may face cuts of 20 and 40% some weeks, who knows.

This is all just to keep us competitive, we may still close. I don't think a public servant can even know what that feels like. I'd work round the clock for the security they have - I want to buy a house, get married, live my life and I'M AFRAID to do any of these things in case I lose my job. I'd love if my 5% cut was actually just contributing more to my future pension! I can't afford a pension!

So if this is our company getting more competitive to survive...Ireland needs to do the same to survive...cut costs - ie staff costs. I'm sorry, but thats reality, just ask any of my colleagues or the many other ordinary private workers with no union to shout from the rooftops from them.

HELLO

I STILL SAY NO AS I DONT BELIEVE THEY CAN AFFORD EVEN WHAT THE ARE LIVING ON.

THOSE IN HIGH SALARY CATEGORY THEY SHOULD HAVE A SALARY CUT &THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE

For goodness sake James give up the silly patronising attitude, I never for one moment implied that the private sector were better or more hardworking, nor do do I hold any stereotype, I was simply pointing out that what Nuala does is considered completely normal in the private sector and has been for quite some time. - As you yourself subsequently pointed out Nuala, it is simply a good work ethic. Tara

Lou plus Anon,

All I am saying is that neither the private sector nor the public sector are angels in this country. I am not picking on the private sector at all, I am just pointing out that the private sector has many flaws as does the public sector. The example of the sterling price exchange was only an example of one prominent way that the private sector isn’t perfect and it wasn’t meant to be a stick. I never said that all private sector people were the owners of multinationals, but Lou did accuse all public servants of being a waste of space doing nothing but “sitting in an office tapping away on a calculator”.

So lets stop this stupid “public versus private” school yard tittle-tattle. There is good and bad in all sections of society.

Nell,

The pension levy is not adding to our pension, I will still get the same 15% of my salary regardless.  I was public sector employee for 20 years and was also not in a position to have a pension because most of the organisations I worked for did not have a pension scheme and it was not possible for me to fund the entire thing myself.

I'm paying for this now in AVC's - 12% to be exact, on top of my 6.5% to my Civil Service pension and almost 7% levy.  I also pay full PRSI, the same as any private sector worker.

I really feel for anyone who's job is in danger.  I know it's really hard out there in the private sector and that many jobs are simply not secure - that's one of the main reasons I decided to join the civil service at this stage in my life and take a pay cut to do so, having been made redundant twice and simply "let go" after 11 months in another job for no particular reason.

My only real difficulty with the levy/pay cuts is that they are not being applied equally across society.  Public Sector workers were considered an easy target.  There are many people in the private sector still earning high salaries and who are in secure jobs.  I will stop objecting to the levy when ALL sectors of society who are in a position to do so are asked to contribute equally to fixing the problem.   Why should a Public Servant on less than €40k per year be asked to pay 7% when Private Sector employees on more than twice that salary are being asked to contribute nothing?  Why is someone at entry level clerical in a County Council earning less than €30k per year considered more able to pay 7% than a bank official earning €130k?  Job security and pension do not make the low paid invulnerable to financial difficulty and poverty.  Look at the circumstances, not the title!

Nell ,bear in mind that a lot of people that were employed in the construction sector were employed as sub contractors, ie self employed. They too pay PRSI of 5% and they get NOTHING when they lose their jobs. NOTHING.

The public service are being hit with a pension levy. At the lower grades it seems unfair. It could easily be rectified by the cowboys in Dail Eireann.

The problem is that public service wages should be cut NOT a silly LEVY.

0% up to 30,000

5% to 50,000

10% to 70,000

20% the rest - can you ask the geniuses in Finance how much that would save for starters.

It is impossible to pay expenditure of 60 billion with income of 34 billion !!

for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, years

Hello hammer and all,

It seems to me that since the government has seen fit to make a complete 'dogs dinner' of the whole affair.....we are ALL going to end up paying for the greed, ineptitude and corruption of many of 'the important people' !

However...we all know by now that the real issue is....who is paying how much....and we should also realise that....yet again....the wealthier in this kip will DEFINITELY NOT be 'sharing' the pain.....any one who thinks otherwise is a fool.....and any one who supports those liars at the top....is equally corrupt. Simple logic !!

HELLO

BRANDY, POST 389

YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, WE ALWAYS END UP PAYING FOR THEIR MISTAKES.

wayfoward,

to anwser your question, you may have to ask the people that voted FF.

I would never ever vote for them.

Has anyone seen the Irish Indo (or it could have been the Times) today, there is a very good letter in it from a clever chap who points out that the term "benchmarking" was introduced initially here in order to increase public pay up to a level which matched that of the private sector. They were only too happy to benefit from it then, during the boom years. What people forget is that the term works both ways, and now they should be accepting cuts because after all, the private sector are losing jobs, profits and pensions left right and centre. Can they really be so blatantly a la carte? Good point I thought, a refreshing little slant, and of course, logical food for thought. Cheers

Benchmarking was like landlord leases which included the clause - upward only rent reviews !!

They didn`t even take pensions into account in the first round of benchmarking.

Public service wages WILL fall 20% in the next 5 years when the Dept of Finance realise that the deficit this year after drastic cuts in public expenditure and major tax increase will be 18,000,000,000 or €10,000 per employed person. The figure for 2010 is expected to be another deficit of 14,000,000,000 and then 2011 another 10,000,000,000 - HOW LONG CAN WE FINANCE THESE DEFICITS ????

Well at least they will still HAVE WAGES to take a cut.

Surely its better that the public servant take even a 20% cut  over five years than the private sector servant take a 100% pay cut this week, this year or or even in five years. Of course a fair cut from the top down as ability to pay is required. We have talked this subject to death so if the politicians on all sides do not get together and sort it out in the country's interest then they should ALL be ignored for the next COUPLE of ELECTIONS, that would be the Local, Lisbon and the General, then they might realise what being on the dole or in the Senate feels like, having no work to do.

buzz posted 24�3�9.

I am one of the THEY that you describe has having a job. Soon it wont be worth  having this job. I am in this job since 1975 and it is going back to that time where I would be better off on the dole like it was in the 8090 when a lot of people were asked to work in the local councils in the last recession but choose to stay on the dole with a lot of them doing much better  on nixers and the dole.

So Buzz while workers higher up in the public sector were well paid we at the lower end of the public sector were NOT .

So all you posters who wish to comment on this subject please note that we are NOT all well paid.

no i dont think nurses and midwives should be asked to take a cut in wages. they are after all just like us carers, they work non stop and give so much love and affection to all their patients. has anyone asked Brian Cowan to take a pay cut?

it would be interesting to see his response wouldnt it?

Alo all I was trying to do was put things into perspective. Of course if you compare ANY wage and allowances with those of the top tier civil servants then yes we will all look like paupers, but for you to say that soon it will not be worth having a job then one can deduce that soon you will be on less than 289 per week (which is of course 204 dole and the maximum 85 rent allowance) and there are very few recently unemployed who receive more than this.

Hi all

It's hard to use a statement 'to be fair' cos there isn't any fariness in this crooked corrupt irish mafia run country.

But to be fair, the cuts should be balanced and IN RELATION to earnings, across the board, STARTING at the top first. The high earners should be chopped, trimmed and axed out of their cushy numbers to start with.

Can someone please explain to me exactly how public pensions are worked out? And also maybe the apparent huge difference between said pensions and those of private sector. Every time I read one report, someone else crawls out of the woodwork to contradict it. There are those who believe that the public sector receive their weight in gold times a thousand upon retiring. There are those who believe that they receive a modest amount for which they have contributed a ridiculosuly high percentage. I suspect the REAL figures lie somewhere in the middle but I would appreciate anyone who could offer simple, straightforward (unbiased!) and clear information that is not obscurred by chips on shoulders (by either side). NO BULLSH*T PLEASE!!! Thank you

i read somewhere that a typical garda after the pension levy was introduced will contribute 120,000 to his pension. His pension when he retires is worth over 1 million, based on life expectancy, lump sum etc.

civil servants pension is calculated as a % of the salary paid to a person of similar rank that remains working in the civil service.

it is a defined benefit scheme. "gold plated"

Yes I do think that public servants should take a bigger cut than the private sector, especially at the top level.The "brave decisions" made by this government and effectively false opposition parties who all in one way or another got us into this mess, e.g. O'rielly Fine Geal and the consultants being one example of throwing caution to the wind where the price was quadrupled just because of the power and restrictive practices of these chosen few. If we voters keep putting in people who decide to enrich themselves legally by their decisions as representatives or government then we must take the blame. So far this "Brave Government" has not recieved any substantial contribution from those that gained most but continue to look for ways to take more taxes /levies from the average down to the poor, the judges being another example of shying away from their duty. Surely the levy should be treated as taxes as they are unlikely to be removed in the lifetime of most serving judges. Also isn't it a reflection on the judges ability to be impartial if they as pillars of society along with politicians and other over compansated public servants can not or will not lead by example. Can you imagine if a major crimnal gang claimed legitimacy for robbery or physical attack because their victims were other crimnals. My views have hardened as this crisis keeps on rolling because the oireachtas keeps on discussing wasteful ideas from people who are paid to have the answers and quite clearly couldn't give a s"""t, and don't intend to change and put the country first.

Buzz,

To achieve full pension you need to work for 40 years in the public service. At that stage you will receive a tax-free lump sum of 1.5 times your salary plus a yearly pension of half your salary. This yearly pension is guaranteed and increases in line with any pay deals active at the time. The contributions up til recently were approx 6.5% per annum. In addition there was the unseen contribution of 12% premium in the last benchmarking report. Therefore in real terms the public servants were until recently paying 18.5% for their pension. In addition if you now have the additional pension levy. This percentage varies from 3% approx 10%. For somebody on 50K the pension levy is approx 7%.

In summary somebody on 50k is contributing 25% of their salary for 40 years to their pension. An interesting exercise for you would be to plug into a pension calculator (the pension board has one). Plug in contributions of 25% for 40 years and see what kind of pension it predicts. (Indeed plug in the 18.5% pre pension levy and see what it predicts)

Sorry JamesH what do you mean by 12% premiun? I am sure we would have heard people squawking about this before now if they all had to pay it?

There are staff working in the public service who are earning 12 to 14 euros a hour Most will have a insurance policy taken from their wages as well as other payments and now we have the pension related ded and income levy then all the other payments that are taken out. I am one of this group we are NOT all up in the big money I have spent 35 years in the same department I went to take early retirement this year   but I cannot as I would have nothing When I started this job every one were urging me to leave and work on the buildings because of the low pay no one would work in the public service and more than once we are looked down at and been spat and threatened with violence all in the course of our work I know staff who have ended with broken bones just doing their work. We are all treated the same way earning big money this is NOT the case I am getting very tired of posters condemning all the workers in the public service So spare a thought for the staff who are not up there with the big earners. 

Hi Buzz

The 12% I refer to came in the last benchmarking report Dec 2007. Whether you heard “squawking” or not it is true for all public servants covered by the benchmarking exercise. It is a premium for the higher cost of public servant pensions. At present this premium is irrelevant as obviously there are no pay increases for public servants. The type of people getting pay increases in the current situation are bank employees, ESB worker and most recently electricians!!! (Some would say they are part of the very sectors that caused the recession but they also appear to be better at “squawking”)

However when the economy starts to improve again the principle and the percentage are now laid down. In a future benchmarking exercise, if two jobs are considered equivalent the person in the private sector job can earn 12% more than the person in the public sector job. Therefore in real terms the public sector person will be paying 12% for their pension on top of the 6.5% they always paid and now on top of the approx 7% pension levy, giving a total of 25% for their pension.

What about those who work 39 years? 18 years? 2 years?

18.5% for a pension is quite extreme yes...where is the balance obtained from? ie the other 81.5%?

Buzz,

Basically the pesnion is 1/80 times the number of years you have worked up to a max of 40 years. Hence at 40 years the pesnion is half pay.

I didn't see your response to the 12% benchmarking premium on public servant pensions.

JamesH as a bank worker I can honestly say that we did not get any pay rise.  We did get a pay freeze though, thankfully not a cut.

And not forgetting of course the 1.5 lump sum upon retirement itself. I am not being pedantic here but this is exactly the type of thing I addressed in my forst post. Being given SOME of the facts but not ALL. Being told well they get THIS but neglecting to say they get THAT aswell do you see what I mean? I wanted an unbiased breakdown of exactly how it works out. I do thank you for your info though. regards

In general, pensions for public sector workers are worth 50 per cent of salary on retirement and a lump sum of 1½ times final-year salary. A spouse’s pension worth 25 per cent of final-year salary may also be paid in case of death.

The pension scheme is even more generous for those who joined the public service prior to 1995. They may collect a public service pension as well as the State pension.

Another feature of public sector pensions is they are typically linked to the salary scale of a pensioner’s former employer, meaning a pension rises with benchmarking and national pay agreement increases. This does not occur with private sector pensions.

.....

Typical pensions across the public sector range from €116,000 per annum for a retired secretary general of a Government department to about €20,000 for a staff nurse.

Most public sector workers – 110,000 – are in the health sector where pension rates for a hospital consultant on the top pay scale would be about €120,000. Typical pension rates for administrative staff in the health sector range from €12,500 for a clerical officer on the lowest pay scale to €97,000 for a director of national hospitals.

In education, the majority of the 55,000 employees are teachers. A teacher on a higher pay scale can expect a pension of about €32,000, not including allowances for additional responsibilities.

In the Civil Service, the largest group of the 35,000 employees are clerical officers. Pensions for such employees are some €18,400, rising to €32,000 for higher executive officers and about €60,000 for higher principal officers.

....

Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector, Department of Finance documentation and Ibec.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

Is this information still correct? Would appreciate any input. Regards

Buzz,

If you reread my message #82, I do in fact have all the facts including the 1.5 times salary lump sum. The 18.5% that you refer to is the public servant contributions over a 40 year period to the pension scheme. So your question re the 81.5% doesn’t really make any sense. Of course as I also mentioned in my message #82 the public servants contributions are now gone up to approx 25% since the introduction of the new extra pension levy.

The only thing I really left out of my first message was the 1/80 rule which I explained in message #88.

Your message #97 looks about right. (The teachers one looks a bit higher than I would have expected, but I am willing to trust you as your contributions are normally fair enough)

Now Buzz the question is where are you going with all this? You seem to be gathering information but so far very little by way of opinion.

Billybob,

The bank I should have referred to was Bank of Ireland. All non-managers were awarded their 3.5% pay rise along with the ESB workers. This was widely reported back in Feb 7th in the Irish Examiner among other places. This at a time when the taxpayer was pumping 8 billion into BOI & AIB to keep them afloat!!!

Hi JamesH,

Yes I remember that - and also remember being very p'd off at the time. Apologies I read your post to mean bank workers in general.

I can get a lot of grief simply for working in a bank (a non Irish bank at that) when in fact the ordinary joe soap bank official had nothing to do with the downturn. A lot of people throughout the country don't seem to understand this and think the current recession is the fault of all bankers.

Where am I "going"? I am not "going" anywhere I am simply trying to assimilate information so that I can make up my own mind based on unbiased and correct info. If you read my previous posts of this week you will SEE that I have already explained this. I am sick and tired listenting to people whingeing about private vs public and want to make up my OWN mind abouty the situation, NOT have it made up for me by some clever editing and omission of truth (which I am sorry to say is rife on both sides)

Hi Billybob I cant believe people are small minded enough to give you stick over the recession. People are so black and white sometimes. There is this need to box people in as good or bad. It's like how my Dad gets grief off people because he is self employed and works in the building trade. Just as people assume that ALL staff in the finance sector are big fat bank chiefs, they also assume that ALL those who work in the building trade are unscrupilous developers! Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Hi Buzz,

Fair enough. You are being unusually coy. You normally have no problem giving out your opinions. I look forward to hearing yours on this issue when you have made up your mind.

Hi James

Thank you yes I believe I am being "fair enough" as you say. What is the point giving an opinion if one has not assimilated all the facts? And indeed, what is WRONG with having an opinion? Your post seems to infer that it is wrong to hold an opinion on more than one issue - I wonder why???

Hello

STILL SAY NO .

Hi

After this week's news from the government they have sent a clear message to the people of Ireland, They have Failed the people miserably, & lined their pockets in the process, If they dont call for a general election they should be dismissed by our President. Vote for no confidence in the government is what I am asking the people of Ireland.

HELLO

I HAVE SAID ALL, I NEED TO ON THIS SUBJECT / ISSUE.

I STILL SAY NO.

AND ONLY WANT TO BE CONTACTED BY E-MAIL ON OTHER ISSUES

CONCERNING NEW MATTERS

THANK YOU & BLESS YOU

M.

Buzz,

I don't follow your logic re opinions. Of course you have a right to your opinion, and I feel that I have always respected your opinions. I hqve always found your opinions interesting and just find it interesting how you seem so shy on expressing an opinion on this topic. All I am saying is that when you have assimilated all your info, I will be interested in your opinion on this topic.

no