# 132

Posted: 15/09/2009 23:40

Yeah, I think the medicine is after getting dearer too. For one batch of my medicines I had to pay the full whack of 100 euros but they shouldn't have been that dear. We need to question this from now on and put a stop to it.

Why? When? How? Where? Huh? What?

# 131

Posted: 14/09/2009 20:56

Has anyone noticed that my DPS medication has not gotten cheaper on our prescriptions? Several people have said this to me. I thought the profit was reduced from 50 % to 20 % and yet when I got my monthly DPS in August it seemed to be dearer than the former month ??? I don't get 100 euro of medication but normally I would pay 86 euro and now I am paid 89 euro approximately. Its as if I'm still paying 50% profit but the chemist is charging me the fee 5 euro but not the profit 20 %. Shouldn't my medicine be cheaper? Does Irish health .com know the why DPS has increased. My chemist told me my medicine got dearer with inflation. I don't believe him.

# 130

Posted: 22/08/2009 21:18

Auditor et al,

Still no focus on or criticism of the drug cos? Stats are thrown out all over the place re the pharms.....how about some profit stats on the drug cos....which most politicians will surely have investments in???

# 129

Posted: 18/08/2009 23:46

The fact is that this action has been all about strong profitable pharmacies trying to protect exceptional profits. I found it nauseating to see the most uncocoperative pharmacy in my area during the dispute show up in the top 6 GMS earners at 900k in last weeks paper. You can add on another 900k in turnover for the non-GMS earnings at a minimum. This is in a town of less than 5000 people and this pharmacy bought out the other pharmacy few years back to prevent anybodyelse opening which they will close when they have the market cornered in their bigger shop. Its stomach churning to hear millionaires talking about poor pharmacies going to the wall when their intentions over the last decade have been to stop young pharmacists opening their own shops. If any of those long-standing pharmacies go to the wall its because they got burnt in the property meltdown of the last two years which has nothing to do with the profitability of their pharmacies and more to do with speculation and greed. For all the criticism of Harney you have to say she has more guts than the rest of her male colleagues put together.

# 128

Posted: 14/08/2009 12:39

Auditor,

You mention that the rebate is 8% - is this the minimum or average current rebate? But rebates are not guaranteed. They are given by the distributors/manufacturers based on purchases and could theoretically be withdrawn or reduced at any time. The only purpose of the rebate is to allow wholesale prices to be fixed while at the same time giving better wholesale prices to larger retailers who purchase more. This was supposed to make the margins achieved by pharmacy more transparent and standard but in fact has done exactly the opposite and has rendered it almost impossible to calculate margins of the entire sector. The average margin might be OK and possibly even excessive, but not everyone has the same margin! Many smaller pharmacies will lose money.

# 127

Posted: 13/08/2009 21:55

Auditor,

What you say re the drug co's and the pharms is probably correct i.e....the 'truth' probably lies in between the two....some pharms are charging too much...some drug co's are charging too much!  

Thing is....pressure has come on the pharms....and none (that I know of) has come on the drug co's....now I, being a (logical) sceptic...know why this is !

Pity that the majority of posters seem to be missing the obvious political shenanigans !

# 126

Posted: 12/08/2009 22:02

Scapegoat, Pharmacists have that right to withdraw at any time and always had. I don't believe that small pharmacists will have to buy at less than they sell and know that the rebate is approx 8%. I do know that to blame pharmacists for the huge differences in drug prices between say here and Spain is erroneous as the drug companies are the culprits here. However you cannot ignore the competition authority findings that pharmacy margins in Ireland are excessively high.

# 125

Posted: 12/08/2009 17:09

Auditor,  I have commented on rebates in my posts on other threads on this issue.  However a rebate is variable, negotiated and very which at the whim of the manufacturers and distributors.  While a large chain might get considerable rebates, a single community pharmacy will get very little.  I should probably point out that I have absolutely no vested interests in this issue.  I have in the past worked in a number of pharmaceutical distributors which is where my knowledge comes from.

My main arguments throughout all of these discussion are simple:

1)  Pharmacists are not "creaming" the price difference between Ireland and other countries as has been claimed by some.  The price the charge for prescription drugs is fixed.

2)  The price which the government is now proposing to pay them for prescription drugs is less than the base wholesale price - rebates are NOT guaranteed and are dependent upon a number of factors.

3)  On this basis, any pharmacist has the right to cancel the contract and not operate the scheme.

# 124

Posted: 12/08/2009 15:43

Scapegoat, apart from the fact that you have conveniently omitted the rebate/discount from your calculations, even if this was the case nobody is forcing the business on each individual pharmacist. If as with all contracts they don't like the price then don't take the contract. If Harney really wanted to push on with this issue each pharmacist would have to tender for their area and if the pharmacists are feeling the wind of real competition now then they would see what competition other businesses such as hotels, corner shops and clothes stores are facing. Welcome to the real world from what was a sheltered environent. Now who was it who said that professions existed to screw the customer or sopmething like that...

# 123

Posted: 12/08/2009 14:03

The "fraction" that Mary Harney has reduced the payments to pharmacists by is a percentage of the price, not the profit. In fact the "fraction" is more than the margin pharmacists have on drugs, so her "fraction" brings the amount pharmacists are reimbursed for a drug to less than the price they pay for it.

# 122

Posted: 12/08/2009 08:11

Seven years ago, the treasurer of the Irish Pharmacy Union, Dermot Twomey, warned that the good times would not last forever for the country’s 1,600 pharmacies. Mr Twomey said Ms Harney’s move would wipe an average of €106,000 a year from the bottom line of an average pharmacy – not €82,000 as stated by the minister.

If that is the fraction that Mary Harney is clawing back the balance was a nice little earner - of taxpayers money.

Chairman of the independent body set up to examine pharmacy pricing, Sean Dorgan, said many pharmacies had been bought and sold at "bubble prices", a level that was double what normal businesses were selling at.

It is difficult to have sympathy with their predicament which was caused by the same greed that has our economy in the state it is presently in. We cannot blame Mary Harney for that!

There is no smoke witofire!

# 121

Posted: 10/08/2009 17:56

Now that Mary has the Pharmacists on the run (Thank God) maybe she could be given Dail "REFORM AND CUT BACKS" BY OUR BRAVE Taoiseach to see out her political career. And when she retires she could be come a consultant and employ Fine gael's James Reilly to bring these over paid public servants back to a relative parity to the average industrial (worker's wage). -eck it here I go dreaming again.

# 120

Posted: 10/08/2009 15:06

Hi James just to clarify in my previosu posts I did in fact mention that the "seven euro" price range was one which I had experienced personally and not simply info given to me by a doctor. Would it be related to the fact that my partner was on illness benefit? On these occasions (emergency supply) there was no prescription and we were under the impression that this was the full price. Regards

# 119

Posted: 10/08/2009 15:03

Hi James I understand what you are saying re backing one another up, but my point was, and still is, that we either believe what someone says or we dont. What I pointed out was that I would rather be the "believer" than the "non believer" - simple as that. Now, without seeking out petty arguments, I am genuinely interested in this one, how is it that some people are being charged one price and others completely different? I am CERTAIN that this is the price range we were charged, because I remember commenting that the price had gone above the seven euro range.

# 118

Posted: 10/08/2009 12:01

Buzz,

There is nothing wrong per se in being naive. However, to take at face value the comments of a GP in this dispute, with all the spinning of facts going on by both sides, is in fact being naive in the extreme. GPs at the end of the day are cronies of the pharmacists and so are naturally going to be biased in how they spin the information. As you no doubt realise GPs are likely to be in the firing line at some point in the near future so they will need the support of their cronies then.

I do not trust either side in this dispute. The HSE are infamous for distorting the truth in a manner to mislead the public. However on the other hand any pharmacist that I am aware of have a very comfortable lifestyle and clearly have been riding on the back of the celtic tiger like so many other groups. At the end of the day it is clear from the figures that a lot of money is being made in this country from medicines and as a country the money has run out.

Incidentally you ask who is charging the €25 for ventolin. The answer is our local pharmacy. Now I will admit that our prescription changed a few years ago and I going on memory. However I am confident that the price was in the 20-25 euro ball park and nowhere near the €7 that you friendly GP mentioned.

# 117

Posted: 09/08/2009 11:40

No. Anyway, they have lost this battle. They now say they will talk to the Minister, the Minister says she will talk to them on specific matters when they are back doing their job. Not quite the same thing. They tried to bluff the HSE and the Minister and their bluff was called.

Pharmacists need to reflect on the lessons of the last week or so. Tough guy stuff may play well with their own internal audience but IPU president Liz Hoctor's tone and tactics made them no friends among the general public. Pharmacists have been seen as greedy and overpaid, and have put themselves outside the general view of health service providers as caring. Many of them are caring and professional people, of course, but that is not the public perception now. They are going to have mend fences with their customers.

What the minority who left the methadone users to swing in the wind can do is between them and their consciences. The refusal of the IPU to condemn this was simply shameful, and the more thoughtful members should be having very strong words with their leadership about this.

Work to do, guys.

# 116

Posted: 08/08/2009 16:57

Hi again folks,

Well...nobody seems to have an answer to my previous questions.....who profits?  Why aren't the figures available....why aren't the names available?

These questions seem simple enough......could it be the answers are too 'revealing' ??

Surely posters.....like the politicians, want to be honest....just like when the pols knock on your door....and shake your hand !!??

# 115

Posted: 08/08/2009 16:42

Hi folks,

Just thought I'd say....there's a chemist in Crumlin village....has an ad that 'says'....ask the pharm about generic drugs!  Just wondering is this ad unique or what....seems to me it'd be a step forward!

Patrick....You say the pharms are very much overpaid?  This may or may not be true....thing is....when Drumm and Harney et al....freely 'suck' criminally-high wages and pensions from the tax-payer....with absolutely no accountability....what is the logical corollary of that?  Correct....the others in the health 'industry' will try to keep up with the 'joneses' !

This last point seems to be missed by most posters....the human race is perhaps the greediest/cruellist of all animals.  This latest fiasco should remind us of the following fact:  Politicians, Lawyers...and, more recently....those in the higher echelons of the Health Service....essentially...and provably... serve themselves first....if any one disagrees....please reply promptly!

# 114

Posted: 08/08/2009 09:19

buzz,

Who prescribed the “required over use of Ventolin” which required referral of the patient to a specialist? Overuse of Ventolin can lead to death in the worst case scenario. Why would anyone exceed the prescribed dose knowing this?

As a chronic allergic asthmatic I take my two puffs of Becotide 100 twice daily as a preventative and as a result very rarely have to resort to Ventolin for relief.

Your dismissive remarks about environment, diet and protection would seem to indicate that you advocate overuse of Ventolin over protection. This is the train of thought we need to address to curtail the unnecessary use of all drugs with the resulting impact on the public purse.

There is no smoke witofire!

# 113

Posted: 07/08/2009 23:14

I do not. Why did the HSE need to seek an injunction against some pharmacist groups? Because those groups closed their shops without giving full notice of withdrawal, or apparently any notice of closing. But why did they close? In my opinion to put pressure on the state to continue paying exorbitant costs for medicines under state schemes so that these companies can meet their big mortgages on so many of the premises they bought in the boom times. In other words, to keep the taxpayer coughing up to meet the result of their greed in expanding so much.

The pharmacists need to be brought to their senses and begin to realise that their service should be no more than adequately paid for, not extravagantly overpaid.

# 112

Posted: 07/08/2009 22:30

Apologies Buzz, no offence meant - I just find the mis-information relayed by the vested interests - GPs, Pharmacists, Consultants, Drug Companies etc -very frustating and they all part of a cartel. If the Pharmacists individually don't like the contract then nobody is forcing them to take it. I mean do people really believe that whatever the shortcomings of the HSE are that they expect a supplier to buy a product and pass it on for less than they paid for. The discount value of the drugs dispensed by pharmacies exceeds E100m. You have to hand it to Harney for trying to get better value for the taxpayer. It makes me sick to hear the medical card holder who get the drugs for free supporting the pharmacists and criticising her. She has done more to improve services for the poor than any Minister back to Barry Desmond.

# 111

Posted: 07/08/2009 21:04

Watching Minister Harney on Prime Last Night, I suddenly realised she is not going to make much of an effort to resolve this dispute.  After all she is now a long time Minister for health and what has she really done to improve services for any member of the community.  We forget she is not standing in the next general election. I wonder does she care at all about the population of this country.  By the way I do not agree with the pharmacists.  Everybody is suffering in this recession.  They should take a cut the same as everybody else.

# 110

Posted: 07/08/2009 19:03

Topic: Many politicians have threatened to quit the community....and retire early.......because of tax-payers/voters stupidity......do you support their actions?

Any answers/support out there for the 'poor' politicians?

# 109

Posted: 07/08/2009 18:28

It's very significant that most posters are taking a stance to do with their own 'political' + health conditions....I would prefer if the topic was discussed purely with relation to health...and the ramifications (or otherwise) of 'political' decisions that impact on the health of the ordinary (specifically poorer) people and children in Ireland.

As adult posters....I think we should consider our children....and the effect this 'crap' will undoubtably have on them.

My own thought, is that those.... who have the power to avoid this disgraceful 'joke'....are only considering themselves and their own relatives.....but, hey....is'nt that what the wealthy have designed since time began?

The question originally proposed...should be examined by all who post....then respond.....then ask yourselves....how much of this is due to money and greed (for politicians...read money and greed always).

Finally....remember....the Min for health....and (God save us) the Taoiseach....could resolve this question very very quickly....if they were concerned about ordinary people/children !

Thing is....not enough posters have recognised the political s**te that is going on in this country....so they'll keep getting away with it...ad infinitum !!

# 108

Posted: 07/08/2009 17:16

hi all

i think its a disgrace that the chemists had to go on strike, my son who has autism is due his new script this week, i only hope our pharmacist is open by then.

# 107

Posted: 07/08/2009 17:11

No.

The pharmacists are responsible for the current mess and are purposely making matters worse with mis-information, while using ill people as sitting ducks. They are very much overpaid and the HSE has no option but to call their bluff!!!

# 106

Posted: 07/08/2009 14:30

Buzz, as someone who grew up in a farming household where if you dropped a biscuit on the floor you picked it up and still ate it rather than throw it in the bin I fully agree that the obsessive cleanliness of our society isn't actually helping our general population health. You have to get some exposure to germs to develop immunity. Livestock used to be wintered outside years ago and got less colds and drugs than they do nowadays as a similar comparison. This is relevant to the debate as this attitude is all part of an industry from Drug Company to GP/Vet to Pharmacist.

I take the point on misprescribing if we term it this and unfortunately it is wisespread .

# 105

Posted: 07/08/2009 14:03

Auditor where do you get off calling me naiive? Because I RELAY something that I am told by a medical professional who is making conversation?? If by "naive" you mean "does not automatically assume the worst of people" then perhaps you are right, though in that case, thank you because I would not WANT to be any other way.

# 104

Posted: 07/08/2009 14:00

buzz,

A Ventolin inhaler contains 200 puffs. At two puffs twice daily it will last fifty days. Ventolin is used by asthmatics during an attack only for relief and is not normally used continuously on a regular basis. Becotide or suchlike is used daily as prevention. Therefore the worst case scenario is one Ventolin in one month maybe a few months of each year. How this works out at twenty or thirty euro per month per patient puzzles me. Is this an example of misinformation? I doubt if the pharmacist will be operating at a loss and I doubt that the example your doctor gave you is the whole truth.

Some sufferers DO require more than the so called recommended dose (and please do not fight me on this one because believe me I have been in A&E so many times with my partner with asthmatic attacks we have REALLY been through the mill on this one, going as far as intubation at one point) I am aware there are preventers (becotide, serotide etc) trust me we have been there. My partner has been referred on to specialist for controlling the asthma because of the required over use of ventolin but nothing can really be done (short of expecting her to sit on a wooden floor all day drinking filtered water, eating boiled potatoes and wearing a dust mask)

I am not in support of the pharmacists actions as I believe it is wrong to hold sick people to ransom and I believe I clarified that in a previous post did I not?

Thank you.

# 103

Posted: 07/08/2009 13:50

Hi James, sorry but I am simply relaying information from a conversation my a GP, and those were the figures presented. I am simply going on what I was told, and in fact I DO remember being in town once and my partner had to get an emergency supply of ventolin ie no prescription so normal charge applied and it was in or around the eight euro mark. I would like to know who is charging you 25! Regards

# 102

Posted: 07/08/2009 12:38

Witofire Re: your post # 94 on your 1st paragraph you now tell myself true proof that you still believe I am a Pharmacist. To 1st Paragraph I've already stated in my post # 80 what I meant, so I do not have to clarify it further.

As regards your 2nd paragraph to add to that, I found information that Mary Harney put forward. She said it's all written into Law meaning the contract with INO and the HSE, it's going before the Courts in October. I found it here on irish.health.com dated 6th August. So it be my opinion as a patient/client depending on my meds each month that the chaos that has been reported, still is happening I go to www.hse.ie each day to see if the Pharmacy I give my prescription to is still on List. I even double check it by ringing my chemist I give prescription to. I also heard on news about 2 days ago, perhaps posters here heard it too. A Professor in Neurology out in Beaumont Hospital said All those on anti-seizure drugs need them, he also said all those needing insulin for diabetes need same" Now bare in mind I not quote him word for word". I know it to be Fact that my being on anti-seizure drugs, but now I am off them for some years now because of no seizures happening to me. It be my opinion that some of those who are on anti-seizure meds may die if they have to wait just say 1,2,3, days before they receive their meds from pharmacies that may not have enough stock of meds. Plus all the outlets run by the HSE may or may have not enough stocked up meds to administer to patients/clients.

Chrissie

To all posters here I am not a Pharmacist-I have other posts here that I believe wiil prove different

UNITED WE STAND - DIVIDED WE FALL

# 101

Posted: 07/08/2009 09:12

Auditor thanks for the posting. It is not news to me how over use or incomplete courses of antibiotics leads to resistant strains, I did study Biochem in college, aside form whihc I think MOST people know this anyway but yes I agree people are too quick to go running to their GPs. It is the same with babies and young children aswell I have noticed. There is a craze now of excessive use of cleaners which I feel in later life WILL adversely affect the child's immune system. You know those products that "kill 99.9% of germs" and there are adds showing mothers (or Fathers) using them neat on a high chair table section and then feeding their child food directly off the table. Sorry for veering off topic but yes I think that people are not being allowed to develop their own natural immunity anymore.

# 100

Posted: 07/08/2009 09:07

Buzz, overprescribed as used here and in the British Medical Journals mean given when not needed

True, but the distinction I am making is this. Prescribing when it's not needed ie if the person is not actually ill enough to warrant medicinal treatment, and prescribing an antibiotic for a VIRUS. These are two very different things. It is one thing to give some an anitbiotic when they do not necessarily need drugs and are capable of fighting the illness themsleves, QUITE another to give them for a VIRUS.

# 99

Posted: 06/08/2009 23:17

Buzz,

As the parent of a child with asthma, I would be over the moon to get a ventolin inhaler for anywhere close to €7. The normal price in the chemist is in the region of €25. I think that your conversation with your GP is a good illustration of cronies supporting each other and spinning the facts (ie the GP supporting the pharmacist)

# 98

Posted: 06/08/2009 22:58

buzz,

A Ventolin inhaler contains 200 puffs. At two puffs twice daily it will last fifty days. Ventolin is used by asthmatics during an attack only for relief and is not normally used continuously on a regular basis. Becotide or suchlike is used daily as prevention. Therefore the worst case scenario is one Ventolin in one month maybe a few months of each year. How this works out at twenty or thirty euro per month per patient puzzles me. Is this an example of misinformation? I doubt if the pharmacist will be operating at a loss and I doubt that the example your doctor gave you is the whole truth.

There is no smoke witofire!

# 97

Posted: 06/08/2009 19:19

Buzz, you are very naive. Ask the same GP what rebate the same pharmacist gets from the drug company?Had the same debate with previous poster who's gone to ground few weeks ago. The GP's are the next vested interest to be tackled after pharmacists - another sacred cow in Irish Society. Next up should be the dentists...

# 96

Posted: 06/08/2009 17:50

Buzz, overprescribed as used here and in the British Medical Journals mean given when not needed. Personally I view it as inappropriate prescribing but it all means the one thing - people are been given access to controlled drugs that they dont require and its compromising their health and creating more resilient infections. The key point is that when one takes a broad spectrum antibiotic (not tailored for the specific infection as tested) for a sickness which they really don't need, this antibitoic also kills good bacteria in their system and awhere it doesn't fully kill bad bacteria which allows them to mutute into more resileint bacteria. The end result is a more immuno compromised person and more superbugs which is a double whammy for general population health - oh and more money for GP's, Pharmacists and Drug Companies...

# 95

Posted: 06/08/2009 17:04

Had a discussion with GP yesterday, apparently the pharmacists are being asked to make up the difference between what they BUY the drugs for and what the government REIMBURSE them for. Example Ventolin inhaler will cost the pharmacist about €7.60 to buy. The government will provide €7.00 towards it. The pharmacy is expected to pick up the 60c difference. With a lot of medical card holders who have chronic illness, the difference can be a significant sum, twenty or thirty euro a month. Now consider the amount of medical card patients a pharmacy may have assigned to it. I am not particularly "for" any school of thought here, but that is the example that was put to me, for what it's worth.

Note: I never support the act of holding sick, elderly, pupils etc to "ransom" in order to punish the fat cats.

# 94

Posted: 06/08/2009 15:35

Chrissie,

Your statement in Post # 80, "Can you put forward these Multinational Pharmacies here clamouring to buy out to the likes of myself and others", must surely be taken to indicate that you are small pharmacist. If you meant something else please explain! I would be delighted to have it clarified.

Those of us who do need drugs on a regular basis must remember the pharmacies that stayed open during this courageous action by the government to curb the greed of pharmacists. Pity we couldn't have tackled the banks in time in like manner!

My opinions in my Post #74 are based on fact. You should take a look at the link on Auditor's Post #91 and visit such other informative sites before you ridicule other posters on this site who are genuinely attempting to contribute to this discussion.

There is no smoke witofire!

# 93

Posted: 06/08/2009 14:02

Over prescribing antibiotics for bacterial infections I could accept, but perscrbing antibiotics for viral infections when even the man in the street knows they don't work for it, ridiculous. Sore throats and chest infections can be bacterial - I have experienced them myself.